Proposal: Cuius regio, eius religio should block HRE reforms.

[Morboth]

So, if the Thirty Year's War should end with a stalemate and the "Cuius regiou, eius religio" solution be adopted, then it should be impossible to push for reform after that, for the Emperor would be stripped of his power and rendered a mere figurehead. If a Catholic or Protestant victory, only an emperor of said religion should be able to press for reform.

Also, all reforms should be rolled back to the one before Erbkaisertum when the Westfalia solution kicks in.

What do you guys think?

 

[yerm]

Sincere question: how do you propose this will improve the current game?

 

[Morboth]

Sincere question: how do you propose this will improve the current game?

Why, adding a REAL reason to participate in the Thirty Years' War, so as to curb the power of the Empire!

 

[IIWW]

Why, adding a REAL reason to participate in the Thirty Years' War, so as to curb the power of the Empire!

It curbs If You win. Why should a stalemate basicly destroy HRE?

 

[Mikalos]

It curbs If You win. Why should a stalemate basicly destroy HRE?

because thats exactly what happened in real life.

Im all for this, if it reaches the ppoint where we declare, officially, "prince decides his territories religion", and these are mutually incapable religions like they are, then theres simply no way to say "but then the HRE kept on pressing for more centralization!"

 

[Vishaing]

I fail to see how arbitrarily removing a major gameplay feature half-way through the game based on a nebulous connection to history which is not shared anywhere else in any of the other aspects of the system in question is at all going to 'improve' gameplay.

Had you simply suggested that Imperial States be less likely to approve reform after the event, or that Protestant states be less likely to allow reforms by a Catholic Emperor, that would be one thing.

Alternatively, if this were done, but The Emperor were given a reform they could attempt that would revoke Cuius regio, eius religio but re-allow Religious League Wars, that would be great, and far far far far far far far far far far far far far more historical and more interesting than the current "One Shot win it or lose it" system.

 

[Mikalos]

I fail to see how arbitrarily removing a major gameplay feature half-way through the game based on a nebulous connection to history which is not shared anywhere else in any of the other aspects of the system in question is at all going to 'improve' gameplay.

Had you simply suggested that Imperial States be less likely to approve reform after the event, or that Protestant states be less likely to allow reforms by a Catholic Emperor, that would be one thing.

Alternatively, if this were done, but The Emperor were given a reform they could attempt that would revoke Cuius regiou, eius religio but re-allow Religious League Wars, that would be great, and far far far far far far far far far far far far far more historical and more interesting than the current "One Shot win it or lose it" system.

i qwould also support this

but theres just no way that you can be forced to lbasicaly lose the religious wars, and then just push on the reform track to unity anyways, that shouldnt be a thing

 

[IIWW]

because thats exactly what happened in real life.

Im all for this, if it reaches the ppoint where we declare, officially, "prince decides his territories religion", and these are mutually incapable religions like they are, then theres simply no way to say "but then the HRE kept on pressing for more centralization!"

Ok, please stop. Whole HRE mechanism has absolutely nothing to do with history, it's one of the most artificial mechanism in this game.

 

[Morboth]

i qwould also support this

but theres just no way that you can be forced to lbasicaly lose the religious wars, and then just push on the reform track to unity anyways, that shouldnt be a thing

Indeed, and that would lead to never-ending religious wars, that would truly tear Europe asunder for no reason.

No, ideally, it should block any further reforms. If Protestantism wins, then only a Protestant Emperor should be able to push for reforms, and the opposite should be the case with Catholicism. The principle that the religion of each prince should dictate the religion of his subjects truly makes it impossible to centralise the HRE in any conceivable way.

 

[yerm]

If we really want to dive into history, the Protestant league should dismantle the emperor's unions and maybe put France on the throne if they win, while a catholic victory should end the reformation and convert all heresies right back to Catholic. Just because. All of this ignores the historical reality that the 30 years war was fought primarily between two catholic nations using religion as a pretext. The religious side of the peace has little to nothing to do with the centralization of the empire, which was arguably far more disturbed by the ruling dynasty having the majority of its power base outside the HRE, than by some trumped-up belief system.

If you REALLY care about making the HRE model history better for no good gameplay reason, reforms should have a long cooldown (maybe 15 years, or 1 per emperor's lifetime), Bohemia needs to lose its ludicrous imperial authority bonus (it was an elector that couldn't even participate in many imperial functions; it was an autonomous monarchy not an imperial prince) and you should lose IA monthly if less than 3 electors are a theocracy. Or, you know, not make the HRE be 100% bonus in every way until the end, so that leaving it has no merit and the only reason to not want to be in the empire is because it's slowing down your blobbing?

Frankly, I think the current HRE system is actually ideal to be dropped, as-is, right onto France. The actual Holy Roman Empire needs a full rework!

 

[Mikalos]

Ok, please stop. Whole HRE mechanism has absolutely nothing to do with history, it's one of the most artificial mechanism in this game.

ill take invention over insanity

 

[IIWW]

ill take invention over insanity

This is already insanity. If a car has square tires, broken engine and gearbox, You shouldn't start with replacing a miror. Whole machanism would need rework, a partial changes are counterproductive.

 

[Mikalos]

Yes buit if we cant get a change, id rather atleast sometyhing that means "centralization is over" doesnt then allow more centralization

 

[Vishaing]

The principle that the religion of each prince should dictate the religion of his subjects truly makes it impossible to centralise the HRE in any conceivable way.

Please explain how local religious autonomy completely and totally prevents a centralized system of taxation, military command, trade, and foreign policy from being developed.
Also, what if the Catholic Emperor later annexes every Protestant HRE state by other means, should they still be absolutely incapable of initiating the process of reform?

As for Multiple Religious Wars, yeah that's kinda the point. In reality there were more than one, and the current implementation is a blatantly a-historical and boring as all hell arbitrarily defined limitation that does nothing but limit gameplay without providing any decent reason for doing so. In reality, Cuius regiou, eius religio was implemented after the Peace of Augsberg long before the 30 Years War really killed The Empire. Later on, Protestant princes banded into a second League because they feared the principle might be rescinded, which (along with some other shenanigans wherein the Emperor actually used Cuius regiou, eius religio to Increase his Power) started the 30 Years War. Only after the end of that did it become permanent, and even then what prevented further attempts at reform was not some arbitrary line on a piece of paper, but the rising power of other states in The Empire.

 

[Mikalos]

Why would the protestant lords submit to the catholic emperor making them have less freedom?

by logic, every reform should be a fight if you lost the religions war, because now they know they can have autonomy in religion, why not the rest?

 

[Sunspawn]

Why would the protestant lords submit to the catholic emperor making them have less freedom?

by logic, every reform should be a fight if you lost the religions war, because now they know they can have autonomy in religion, why not the rest?

Why would the catholic lords submit to that same catholic emperor making them have less freedom? Religion has nothing to do with ambition and desire for autonomy. You're basically saying that instead of fixing a somewhat misshaped mechanic, Paradox should do it's favorite thing and ax it out of the game - that's not improvement, that's taking stuff out of the game and not putting anything new in their stead.

 

[Mikalos]

Or you could just win the war.

Why am i able to convince everybody its a good idea to make my nation eternal emperor wjhen i cant even tell them what religion to be?

 

[IIWW]

Why would the protestant lords submit to the catholic emperor making them have less freedom?

by logic, every reform should be a fight if you lost the religions war, because now they know they can have autonomy in religion, why not the rest?

They get -50 modifier for support of reforms. The war is over, they keep their religous freedom.
As for HRE changes: It's simply starting from the least important thing. The reforms are pushed extremly hard (during the HRE there was already the ewiger landfriede passed, in 1474 there were 3 first in-game reform passed. Try to do it without cheesing). If HRE would to be chanched, we need a full remodelling of this mechanism, not starting "from rear end"

 

[Gnomi]

Why would the catholic lords submit to that same catholic emperor making them have less freedom? Religion has nothing to do with ambition and desire for autonomy. You're basically saying that instead of fixing a somewhat misshaped mechanic, Paradox should do it's favorite thing and ax it out of the game - that's not improvement, that's taking stuff out of the game and not putting anything new in their stead.

Yeah, the notion that the HRE lords would willingly submit to the Emperor just because "imperial authority" is high enough -- which is something that easily goes up by normal gameplay -- is absurd. The only reasons that HRE "reform" past the first one -- the ones which give no benefit at all to the HRE lords and all the benefit to emperor -- would pass is that these reforms are the "an offer one cannot refuse" -- either because the HRE emperor already has the dominant strength compared to its lords and the potential external supporters of the lords, or the lords are facing the strong pressure from the below. Right now, forming HRE is so easy that even caveman -- I mean, AI -- can do it most of times.

 

[grommile]

Yeah, the notion that the HRE lords would willingly submit to the Emperor just because "imperial authority" is high enough -- which is something that easily goes up by normal gameplay -- is absurd. The only reasons that HRE "reform" past the first one -- the ones which give no benefit at all to the HRE lords and all the benefit to emperor

The first four reforms are all unambiguously beneficial to the members as well as to the Emperor (and yes, I know they used to have penalties for the members). It's the fifth reform (no more internal wars) that marks the transition point.