Proposal: Bridges

[chridder]

HOI 3 will be created with a map which is much more detailed then in any other PI EU style game... one province, at least in europe, will represent a really small area.

In WW2 especially the bridges in Europe, and there especially the bridges over the Rhine were from a strategic point of view very important... US troops (and british too?) tried to get the bridges before germans were able to destroy them...

supply and movement of troops need bridges to cross the Rhine in a large number...

So, what does it mean for HOI3.
From my point of view, bridges should be an additional build option on province level... only provinces with bridges along the Rhine can be crossed from west to east and vice versa without high penalties on movement speed.

Provinces without bridges can be crossed by divisions with Pioneers attached with a small penalty. Other units ...
a) can not cross...
b) can only cross with really high penalties

Supply routes will move through provinces with bridges... if no province with bridge is available, supply route gets high penalties...

Bridges can get build and destroyed... bridges can get build like airbases on province level up to a level of X (10?)... each level allows more troops / supply in parallel... heavy tanks will get penalties up to level 4(?) (means weak bridges where onla a few tanks can cross at the same time)...

Bridges should be visible on the map, because they are important...

building and destroying a bridge needs time... so also when retreat, you can not just destroy all bridges... for each level of a bridge it needs several days to decrease it to the next lower level... so enemy has a chance to capture it before it is destroyed completly... while a province is under attack, the destruction of the bridge get some penalties (because the team which prepares the explotion cannot cross the bridge without risk)

The idea is based a little bit on movies like "The Bridge of Arnhem"...

Edit: just want to add, that I think, this should be restricted to the big rivers of the world... !!! And yeah, it must be specified which provinces can build bridges, especially, when the river is on the border...

What do you think?

 

[Danielefc]

Personally I would love stuff like that. But my magic eightball foresees folks screaming: MICROMANAGEMENT! :rofl:

 

[chridder]

but there must be something you can do behind the front!!!

But I feel you may be right ... I fear we will get NO supply centers, NO trains, NO bridges... so, what shall I do in Peace times? How can I prepare for war... what are my strategic options behind the front???

But again:
I am not talking about micromanagment.. I am talking about more strategic depth !!!

 

[Alexander Seil]

Personally I would love stuff like that. But my magic eightball foresees folks screaming: MICROMANAGEMENT! :rofl:

MICROMANAGEMENT!!! AAAAAAAA!!!!

On a more serious note, how in the world would that be handled? Would be different types of bridges? Where is the bridge if the river is on a border? There's a billion things that need to be figured out before anyone could even write code for that. Oh, and yes, MICROMANAGEMENT!!!! AAAAAAA!!!!

However, note that Holland is full of rivers and airborne assaults don't suffer from river crossing penalties. So here's an actual motivation for doing Market Garden how they did it historically.

 

[chridder]

Would be different types of bridges?

No. Just one type of brigdes and maybe a level from e.g. 0-10 like for ports and airports.

 

[wilcoxchar]

I just got a vision of the Golden Gate Bridge showing on the map as a link between the San Francisco and Marin provinces.

I doubt that will be the case, but I sure hope it is.

Bridges don't really make much sense now with rivers not being just on the borders of provinces, but it would make some straits more interesting. And I'm pretty sure that Paradox has included bridges under the concept of infrastructure, which already does most of what you want bridges to do.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think part of the conceptual problem is also that if you track bridges, you need to track whether they're blown, which raises the question as to whether you should order them to be blown manually - which raises the question as to what the Größter Feldherr Aller Zeiten is doing with a detonator. So, again, MICROMANAGEMENT!!!!

 

[chridder]

MICROMANAGEMENT!!! AAAAAAAA!!!!

And I do not see the point why this is micromanagement, when I can build brigdes in a few important provinces ...

Micromanagement is, what I had to do since HOI 1 with the sliders for IC ... every day I have to check, if these stupid sliders are still in the correct position... I can not push one button to fit the need for e.g. production, I have to move this stupid slider manual, for production, supply goods, etc...

This is MICROMANAGEMENT !!!

I think part of the conceptual problem is also that if you track bridges, you need to track whether they're blown, which raises the question as to whether you should order them to be blown manually - which raises the question as to what the Größter Feldherr Aller Zeiten is doing with a detonator. So, again, MICROMANAGEMENT!!!!

I would assume, that also here, some abstraction is possible.. as you produce a airport, you can produce a bridge, and when giving it a destruction order, it is e.g. represented in your production list. When finshed, the bridge is one level smaller as before .. down to zero. That's it!

 

[unmerged(48627)]

I think it would be silly to include bridges in particular as silly, but I`d like to see it abstracted in one or two ways:
1. Don`t make it possible to cross rivers in all provinces, but limited possible rivercrossing to where there were possible to cross in real life.
2. And perhaps even simpler and better: increase infrastrucure in provinces with viable rivercrossings to simulate fords, bridges narrow rivers etc. Destruction of infra in these provinces equals destruction of bridges. Tactically it would be important to protect high infra provinces as you can move your units and suppies faster through these provinces compared to the neighbouring ones and equally important to bomb the infra in these provinces in enemy territory. They would also be prime targets for paratroopers and fast breakthrough units....

 

[chridder]

1. Don`t make it possible to cross rivers in all provinces, but limited possible rivercrossing to where there were possible to cross in real life.
2. And perhaps even simpler and better: increase infrastrucure in provinces with viable rivercrossings to simulate fords, bridges narrow rivers etc. Destruction of infra in these provinces equals destruction of bridges. Tactically it would be important to protect high infra provinces as you can move your units and suppies faster through these provinces compared to the neighbouring ones and equally important to bomb the infra in these provinces in enemy territory. They would also be prime targets for paratroopers and fast breakthrough units....

1. Agreed!
2. partly agree, after thinking about it again, I feel that you can have a great infrastructure, but just destroyed bridges to ensure enemy can not follow so fast Not sure if it should get to this detail ...

 

[nigo]

lol


Its Company of Heroes or Hearts of Iron? :rofl:

 

[WarDog]

lol


Its Company of Heroes or Hearts of Iron? :rofl:

Hehe. You have a point there. This is a grand strategy game.



Another thing is how much time are Paradox going to spend on researching rivers and bridges around the world? What part of the game should be ignored in order to find time for this new aspect?

I believe this will never, ever happen...

 

[Darth Tracid]

1. Agreed!
2. partly agree, after thinking about it again, I feel that you can have a great infrastructure, but just destroyed bridges to ensure enemy can not follow so fast Not sure if it should get to this detail ...

please use one post to reply to other posters using the "quote" function. double-posting is strongly discouraged. thank you.

 

[Mendeth]

Hehe. You have a point there. This is a grand strategy game.

True, but bridges were and still are an extremely important strategic factor. As the OP mentioned, Operation Market Garden relied on the bridges in Holland being captured and held. The capture and defence of Pegasus Bridge on D-Day is another example of bridges being perceived as important enough for airborne troops to be sent to capture them.

I agree with Tantor's idea that bridges ought to be fairly abstracted though. A partial reduction of movement compared to normal, though not as bad as in regions without bridges.

As for the destruction of bridges, could they not be considered simply installations? Or perhaps include a specific 'strike bridges' air mission (if the air-side of warfare remains similar to HOI2).

 

[chridder]

I agree with Tantor's idea that bridges ought to be fairly abstracted though. A partial reduction of movement compared to normal, though not as bad as in regions without bridges.

Even when abstracted, would it make sense to highlight it somehow on the map, maybe only in e.g. the supply route layer ?

please use one post to reply to other posters using the "quote" function. double-posting is strongly discouraged. thank you.

Oh sorry, not so often that I write in Forums. Corrected! Thanks for mention it...

 

[Mendeth]

Even when abstracted, would it make sense to highlight it somehow on the map, maybe only in e.g. the supply route layer ?

Oh yeah, perhaps in the supply route map. Personally I was thinking more along the lines of images like the AA and coastal defence ones that already exist, though due to the size of some of the territories, this might not be possible.

 

[chridder]

Oh yeah, perhaps in the supply route map. Personally I was thinking more along the lines of images like the AA and coastal defence ones that already exist, though due to the size of some of the territories, this might not be possible.

I was thinking about the same... A little bridge pic to show where important provinces are... but when abstracting it, seperating it to the supply route map might make sense so that map is not overloaded in normal mode...

 

[TheLand]

If bridges, why not railheads, marshalling yards, towns with road junctions?

Personally I think a generalised 'infrastructure' level does the trick just fine.

 

[unmerged(54763)]

Remagen bridge.
It will be nice,but is it possible?

 

[unmerged(48627)]

Personally I think a generalised 'infrastructure' level does the trick just fine.

Generalized infrastructure is fine, but i need to get the feeling that some provinces are more important to supply and movement than others. As long as every german core is at 100%, bombing to decrease infra is useless as a strategic weapon. Destroying infra like bridges, railhubs etc was an important preparation to offensive actions and invasions in WW2, but not in HOI2...