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Bradeh

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I'm using the latest beta of PB, ArkoA, NBRT+ Light and Family Relations. It happened to me the other day and I quickly assumed it was a bug in the beta version of PB. It then happened again today so I went looking through the save file and noticed that both characters had the do_not_disturb and coming_to_feast flags but they were seemingly permanent. I assumed it was happening because of me changing characters with the console command.

I hadn't played CK2 or PB in quite a while before the last few weeks so I couldn't really tell you anything else variables wise. Maybe a vanilla issue.
 
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Klonself

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We have plans to future-proof at least PB (and probably get all other HIP mods which touch traits at all to adopt the same standard too) from this crap. We will be carefully allocating a number of "placeholder" traits at the beginning and end of various mods' related trait files, the largest reserved allocation going into a file named such that it will always reasonably load right after vanilla traits but before any mods' traits. This will give us a bunch of "trait ID space" buffer against vanilla updates. As vanilla fills the space with new traits (similar process for save-compatible mods adding/removing traits), we will remove the corresponding number of placeholders from the beginning of that buffer zone, allowing all of our extended traits to continue to be save-compatible despite vanilla trait additions, across different mod combos.

However, to put the system in place, trait compatibility has to be broken at some point, and since PB itself hasn't broken save compatibility in a long time, we don't intend to break it until we absolutely have to: when Rajas of India is released. At that time, we'll take the opportunity to future-proof the system.

Thanks, I think I can hold out for that then, especially since VIET stuff does a lot of what I'm after and part of it was I just wanted to get duels to actually work, which straight-up installing the New Duel Engine literally never does. Tried copying the files into VIET Events but that causes a crash whenever the events fire. Sorry for the big bother then, the information was helpful to know.
 

Gnostiko

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With the autonomy faction, that's intended. Instead they always vote in your favor, which is a lot better than them leaving entirely.
Does it happen with any other faction?

Ah, I see. The last time I saw that was before you revamped the faction system, so I just assumed it was something that hadn't been corrected, as I haven't played PB/VIET since before the HIP amalgamation. If it's WAD, that's fine. Just a couple of questions though: the Autonomy faction leader is at 100+ relations but the faction still exists...I'm assuming this is also WAD? Also, where can I find more information on your new faction system?
 

Ipsissimus

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Quick question. Is there a way to destroy Venice republic?
I am playing with the VIET mod and I can only make them war for an embargo. I can't fabricate a claim and I am trying to create the Roman empire but I can take the Venice Thema. Thanks.
 

Jaidal

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Quick question. Is there a way to destroy Venice republic?
I am playing with the VIET mod and I can only make them war for an embargo. I can't fabricate a claim and I am trying to create the Roman empire but I can take the Venice Thema. Thanks.


Are you able to after you take the Venice Thema?
 
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zijistark

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Thanks, I think I can hold out for that then, especially since VIET stuff does a lot of what I'm after and part of it was I just wanted to get duels to actually work, which straight-up installing the New Duel Engine literally never does. Tried copying the files into VIET Events but that causes a crash whenever the events fire. Sorry for the big bother then, the information was helpful to know.
OK, I'm up to my limit in [totally valid] complaints about NDE not working since its last update. I've responded to 20+ users that think PB's broken because the NDE doesn't work basically at all anymore, and those are just the ones to which I've responded.

Meneth, we have a perfectly good integrated NDE in our repository, and it rocks; we just need to bring it back. I assume neither of us is excited to try debugging the present NDE version. I think a revert of the latest NDE integration commit is in order at this point. What do you think? Despite it being buried in other commits, it's pretty well isolated, so any revert conflicts should be easily resolved (probably just my one two-line diff that disables holding a grand tournament as a high priority decision until after the user unpauses from scenario startup).
 

zijistark

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I'm using the latest beta of PB, ArkoA, NBRT+ Light and Family Relations. It happened to me the other day and I quickly assumed it was a bug in the beta version of PB. It then happened again today so I went looking through the save file and noticed that both characters had the do_not_disturb and coming_to_feast flags but they were seemingly permanent. I assumed it was happening because of me changing characters with the console command.

I hadn't played CK2 or PB in quite a while before the last few weeks so I couldn't really tell you anything else variables wise. Maybe a vanilla issue.

None of those other mods are going to set do_not_disturb, and I sincerely doubt it's a vanilla issue, so it's something in PB. I have a flag tracing tool in progress that will aid in pinpointing the sources of problems like these. I'll either finish it and use it to help, or I'll just dynamite the likely sources and then isolate the culprit by process of elimination, as it should be pretty trivial due to the limited usage of that flag in our codebase.
 

AnaxXiphos

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None of those other mods are going to set do_not_disturb, and I sincerely doubt it's a vanilla issue, so it's something in PB. I have a flag tracing tool in progress that will aid in pinpointing the sources of problems like these. I'll either finish it and use it to help, or I'll just dynamite the likely sources and then isolate the culprit by process of elimination, as it should be pretty trivial due to the limited usage of that flag in our codebase.

I believe there's been a post or two in the vanilla bug forums about people having issues with permanent do_not_disturb flags. So my guess would be that vanilla has a failure point somewhere, and then something in HIP may be exacerbating the problem.

Beyond a flag tracing tool, I'd also suggest it might not be a bad idea to introduce a "failsafe" maintenance event which looks for rulers who've had the flag for five or ten years and simply purges it.
 
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Meneth

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OK, I'm up to my limit in [totally valid] complaints about NDE not working since its last update. I've responded to 20+ users that think PB's broken because the NDE doesn't work basically at all anymore, and those are just the ones to which I've responded.

Meneth, we have a perfectly good integrated NDE in our repository, and it rocks; we just need to bring it back. I assume neither of us is excited to try debugging the present NDE version. I think a revert of the latest NDE integration commit is in order at this point. What do you think? Despite it being buried in other commits, it's pretty well isolated, so any revert conflicts should be easily resolved (probably just my one two-line diff that disables holding a grand tournament as a high priority decision until after the user unpauses from scenario startup).
Sounds like the best course of action to me.
 

zijistark

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I believe there's been a post or two in the vanilla bug forums about people having issues with permanent do_not_disturb flags. So my guess would be that vanilla has a failure point somewhere, and then something in HIP may be exacerbating the problem.

Beyond a flag tracing tool, I'd also suggest it might not be a bad idea to introduce a "failsafe" maintenance event which looks for rulers who've had the flag for five or ten years and simply purges it.

Though maintenance events, especially ones hitting all rulers and triggering solely off a flag, are never a joy to add, you may have a point there about the fail-safe event. However, let's see if we can't determine it's really just a PB isssue. The design of do_not_disturb is fundamentally flawed within Paradox's modding framework: there is no way to guarantee that a flag will cleared by some later event once it's set, and the setting/clearing would always be in separate, time-separated events. Thus, I would expect some problems in Vanilla too (mostly just truly exceptional cases, though). A combined flag + event flow tracer (static analysis) could help me track any of those down.

The biggest problem with do_not_disturb is its global scope. That is, the same flag's cleared and set by tons of event chains, so even if you had a full map of connected event chains and where flags were set and cleared in them, there will still be lots of different event chains doing that simultaneously, greatly confusing matters. This was a hack to avoid coding a new trigger character trigger 'is_busy' and effect 'do_not_disturb = yes/no' which was both faster and took care of any maintenance. Poor show, really.

EDIT: Strike that. If Paradox didn't want add a new trigger/effect for the same purpose, they could've just as easily have used a timed character modifier to ensure automatic reaping. Checking for a character modifier is at least as fast as a flag, as all possible character modifiers are explicitly known before the game even proceeds to parse any events/decisions or other ways of referencing the name of one, allowing for a much more space- and time-efficient data structure to be used in the character object to track it (though if they had a better optimizer-- a multi-pass parser, flags could also be ridiculously fast-- almost like dynamic traits).
 
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zijistark

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Sounds like the best course of action to me.
Agreed. I'll try restoring it today. It will be excellent getting duels working again, even if we lose the special tourneys for now. Whenever jordarkelf addresses the NDE problems, we can have our cake and eat it too. Until then, let's at least eat some cake.

Plus, this is my main suspect for a PB-related source of the never-clearing do_not_disturb business, as suggested initially by AnaxXiphos to me regarding a related bug report from a few weeks ago.
 

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Beyond a flag tracing tool, I'd also suggest it might not be a bad idea to introduce a "failsafe" maintenance event which looks for rulers who've had the flag for five or ten years and simply purges it.

Oh, and I guess we'd sort of need to delay falling back to a fail-safe flag-cleanup event for safety reasons until we see if we fix the issue in PB. After all, if we find a clear source or the problem magically disappears after reverting the latest NDE and its active tournament code, we'd want to see if that actually fixed the problem in practice.

I guess this is one of those times I should just do a huge couple 100 years test run with yearly saves and write a quick Perl snippet to attach to my basic savegame parser to track the yearly campaign-wide percentage of the living population with do_not_disturb set (and some other related metrics) and then compare before and after eliminating possible flag-clearing bugs. This could help cluster the affected population by religion, e.g., as well to narrow down the possible sources.
 

zijistark

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Joy to the world! Battlefield duels have now been fixed in the beta!

After reverting the latest version of NDE which has been non-functional for way too long, I naturally need to do a quick test to trigger a battlefield duel and ensure that it completes normally. Not only was this successful, but it ended-up being totally hilarious. A mini-AAR:

First off, since I'm a developer and do a lot of testing, I've got a testing sub-mod which lets me do things like spawn reinforcement regiments wherever I'm in command (or at any location on the map) and immediately unlock Crusades, all with a neat little decision menu interface to boot. This explains how the Pope called a crusade for Jerusalem in 1068 and why I, the Shia Caliph, have a 30K doomstack defending against Christianity.

The infidels are trapped by my host just outside of Jerusalem, led by Pope Alexander himself. It was going to be more than just a battle, I knew, for only Allah would set me against the leadership of the Great Infidel, Pope Alexander II. Several thousand of my brethren would fall in battle to the Infidel today, and judgement would come by way of sword and lance.

As skirmish first began, my own elite cavalry regiments had already outflanked and partially encircled the poor fools. I led an ambitious cavalry charge directly into the rear of the flank in which I could do the most damage to the Infidel's command structure.

caliph_duels_pope1.jpg

It was the Pope himself! Allah had indeed set my destiny to pivot upon this very moment. I charged him, nearly killing my horse to catch him before his guard arrived.

caliph_duels_pope2.jpg

Of course, the weak fool screams "Yield! I yield!" after a round of parry:

caliph_duels_pope3.jpg

I could choose to let him live; he is an old man, after all, and I'm but a mere, healthy 39 years old. But... no mercy for the weak, especially not for the Anti-Caliph.

caliph_duels_pope4.jpg

He is defeated! Surely, I will rest in paradise. I feel a sense of completion, like the rest of my life will never compare to this point. A couple days of intense, bloody battle pass, and the Infidel forces are collapsing without the ability to retreat. Divinely inspired by personally slaying the Great Infidel, I've ordered all my commanders to pursue at all costs and vanquish the Christian zealots, taking no mercy, and executing God's clear judgement, as demonstrated by the Pope's trial by combat, without relent.

Then, as I was finishing my decadent morning rations in the command tent in celebration of what will be total victory and the ruin of over 25,000 infidels, lords and soldiers alike...

caliph_duels_pope5.jpg

Apparently, the Christian God does strike down his enemies. I choked on some grilled leeks.

Mind you, this all happened in a single battle. WTF. Hilarious.

Duels work now. :D
 

Danary

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If im playing Shattered, how long does the special CB last at the start of the game? And the make all counties Feudal, what does that do exactly?
 

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This is very exciting. Playing as a ravenous Norseman just isn't the same when I can't personally smite my foes. When will be the next update so I can get back to this game??

Probably this coming weekend. You can always grab the beta copy of PB and do a custom install with the beta files too, for instant access. See the OP for a link to our GitHub repository for the beta. See the README which shows up right under the file listing (big text mid-lower screen) for instructions on installing the PB beta with HIP.
 

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Danary said:
If im playing Shattered, how long does the special CB last at the start of the game? And the make all counties Feudal, what does that do exactly?
Feudalize everyone-- no random, independent lord mayors or prince-bishops. in other words, easier to conquer and perhaps a bit more appropriate for the premises of that scenario.

The special CB has restrictions in it that work in tiers (so a little complicated to summarize exactly) to transition you from direct conquest (demesne-building) to mere subjugation (once you're a duke) as you grow bigger / rise in tier. That way, it's not an arbitrary time deadline, but instead stuff just starts slowing down proportionately to how unshattered the world gets, the CBs being useless by the time there's a great duke in every corner (but not nec. kings, fight that the hard way).
 
Last edited:

Danary

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Feudalize everyone-- no random, independent lord mayors or prince-bishops. in other words, easier to conquer and perhaps a bit more appropriate for the premises of that scenario.

The special CB has restrictions in it that work in tiers (so a little complicated to summarize exactly) to transition you from direct conquest (demesne-building) to mere subjugation (once you're a duke) as you grow bigger / rise in tier. That way, it's not an arbitrary time deadline, but instead stuff just starts slowing down proportionately to how unshattered the world gets, the CBs being useless by the time there's a great duke in every corner (but not nec. kings, fight that the hard way).
Thanks, I see what you are saying about the CBs. But do they eventually stop though? When I get a big nation, I dont want to keep getting attacked back to back. I like to start in a territory thats one religion, I start as a religion different from that one to try to spread my religion and culture. So that will leave me open for a lot of attacks. One scenario I started as Jewish in Naples, and started conquering the area around Jerusalem. When our nations got all big, I kept getting hammered by the Sunni back to back to back. I couldnt keep up. I was taking a big penalty to my levies because most of my provinces were not my religion or culture. So the special CB never technically stops then?
 

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Thanks, I see what you are saying about the CBs. But do they eventually stop though? When I get a big nation, I dont want to keep getting attacked back to back. I like to start in a territory thats one religion, I start as a religion different from that one to try to spread my religion and culture. So that will leave me open for a lot of attacks. One scenario I started as Jewish in Naples, and started conquering the area around Jerusalem. When our nations got all big, I kept getting hammered by the Sunni back to back to back. I couldnt keep up. I was taking a big penalty to my levies because most of my provinces were not my religion or culture. So the special CB never technically stops then?

One thing that doesn't slow down is no trait-based limits on non-dejure or non-bordering holy wars. But that's still an improvement over vanilla. I don't think the problem you describe (which is an amusing gameplay strategy/goal, BTW) is one that Shattered Balance specifically has much of anything to do with; being a foreign religion surrounded by infidels is going to lead to a lot of holy wars all right. :D