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Raineh Daze

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Well, I'm not sure I'd want Pagan republics to get it either if they were somehow to come into existence. Before the introduction of Jews, Christians were essentially the only ones where it made much sense for them to have it.

Christians are the only ones where it makes sense to declare two wars; one to get a city in the province, the other to seize the province itself? I suppose every other religion would be more direct about it. Though the existence of pagan republics being unlikely makes me less certain what the problem is?
 

Meneth

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Christians are the only ones where it makes sense to declare two wars; one to get a city in the province, the other to seize the province itself? I suppose every other religion would be more direct about it. Though the existence of pagan republics being unlikely makes me less certain what the problem is?
More that the only ones it makes much sense to be so extremely powerful are the Christian republics.

Everyone does get Seize City, but only Christians (and in the next version, Jews) get the Seize County CB. Maybe Pagans should have it as well, not sure. Can't give it to Muslims though; that'll make their three republics in PB without SWMH too strong.
 

Meneth

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Right, I'm considering adding the new faction system to PB proper in the next version (coming between the 3rd and the 6th).
To ensure it works as well as possible out of the box though, I need more people to try it out.
You can download PB with the faction system here. Note that it replaces your current install, so delete or rename your current PB folder.

What I'm looking for is simple feedback:
  • Are there any bugs (most/all should've been eliminated by now)
  • Is it obvious enough why the faction is acting like it is?
  • Is the faction aggressive enough? Is it too aggressive? Is it just right?
Beyond that, suggestions for more that could be added is appreciated, but unless it is simple to implement will probably not make it into the first release version.
 

Raineh Daze

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Right, I'm considering adding the new faction system to PB proper in the next version (coming between the 3rd and the 6th).
To ensure it works as well as possible out of the box though, I need more people to try it out.
You can download PB with the faction system here. Note that it replaces your current install, so delete or rename your current PB folder.

What I'm looking for is simple feedback:
  • Are there any bugs (most/all should've been eliminated by now)
  • Is it obvious enough why the faction is acting like it is?
  • Is the faction aggressive enough? Is it too aggressive? Is it just right?
Beyond that, suggestions for more that could be added is appreciated, but unless it is simple to implement will probably not make it into the first release version.

I've missed what the new faction system changes. That would be...?
 

Meneth

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I've missed what the new faction system changes. That would be...?
A quick summary:

My crown auth factions are merged into a single powerful faction.
Every 3 to 7 years they hold a meeting where they decide if they want to do anything.
If they're in a bad mood, they might ask to have crown authority reduced, or a few other bad things.
If they're happy they might commend their liege, or support him in a defensive war.
If they're neutral they might try to strengthen their own position.
Overall it has more depth than the original factions, is more responsive, and is potentially a much larger threat, as it is global to the realm, not just a single kingdom.
 

Raineh Daze

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Time to see how long it takes me to collapse the Byzantine Empire through internal strife. XD

... well, I had a faction pop up within a month of starting. Old Gods start date, whilst under attack by infidels. o_O

UPDATE: It got worse. I'm not even a year into the game, only three vassals have a negative opinion, and I have a 135% Strength faction clamouring for autonomy. This is in August. One year in, it's hovering at the 200% mark. But apparently the vassals are favouring the status quo according to an event?

UPDATE 2: So, as I understand it, the autonomy faction decides every three years whether to stage an uprising over your laws, and thus isn't going to immediately murder me despite all being my friends?

... and what are the Imperial Reconquest tiers with SWMH added in?

OPINION 1: Uprisings are now frustratingly difficult, verging on nigh impossible. Even if you crush every sizeable rebel army, that gives enough time for some of your holdings to be sieged--which leads to playing whack-a-mole and having to split your army into as many groups as possible, because the garrisons won't reinforce in time to stop the 29-man levies that the rebels keep raising from taking them back. The result is spending years putting down a rebellion you outnumber 10-to-1, haemorrhaging funds, because you need to have a force on nigh on every loyalist province just to stop the warscore from plummeting due to distant vassals' castles being constantly sieged and reclaimed. And then, due to the siege issue, you have to start sieging the rebels... despite their total lack of military power by this point.

Maybe it would be easier if I had 30 retinue units. As it is...

Though I forgot White Peace meant the law didn't change.

... still, the inclusion of nigh on every vassal you possess has... problems.

SUGGESTION: ... is it possible to disable the 'vassals have a meeting event' whilst one uprising over law is ongoing? It didn't happen, but the fact that I got an announcement a few months into the conflict that they were favouring the status quo raises the possibility of wars' constantly starting.
 
Last edited:

zijistark

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... well, I had a faction pop up within a month of starting. Old Gods start date, whilst under attack by infidels. o_O

UPDATE: It got worse. I'm not even a year into the game, only three vassals have a negative opinion, and I have a 135% Strength faction clamouring for autonomy. This is in August. One year in, it's hovering at the 200% mark. But apparently the vassals are favouring the status quo according to an event?

The autonomy faction is expected to fill-out quickly. Since it is a neutral faction (merely a collection of your nobles that favor their general autonomy within the realm but want to stay in the realm) with a "mood consensus" mechanic that may lead to positive, neutral, negative, and no action taken toward / presented to you, the faction strength is only a worry when you or your laws are not sufficiently popular with your vassals. If you've ever played CK2+, it's like a more general princely faction. Unfortunately, there's nothing to do about the "Dangerous Factions" alert that pops-up other than to mod the alert icon to say "Factions" and have the tooltip for the alert reflect said possible neutrality (however, non-autonomy factions can still form, and they are always "dangerous," so one still wants the pop-up alert with the list and relative strengths to show). [By "popup," I mean the alert at the top of the screen.]

OPINION 1: Uprisings are now frustratingly difficult, verging on nigh impossible. Even if you crush every sizeable rebel army, that gives enough time for some of your holdings to be sieged--which leads to playing whack-a-mole and having to split your army into as many groups as possible, because the garrisons won't reinforce in time to stop the 29-man levies that the rebels keep raising from taking them back. The result is spending years putting down a rebellion you outnumber 10-to-1, haemorrhaging funds, because you need to have a force on nigh on every loyalist province just to stop the warscore from plummeting due to distant vassals' castles being constantly sieged and reclaimed. And then, due to the siege issue, you have to start sieging the rebels... despite their total lack of military power by this point.

Maybe it would be easier if I had 30 retinue units. As it is...

Though I forgot White Peace meant the law didn't change.

... still, the inclusion of nigh on every vassal you possess has... problems.
Your problem applies to any other strong revolt. The fact that the revolts are pretty much all strong now, if they happen, does present more of a challenge. Also, using your spymaster to coerce strong vassals (suppose you have a couple king / really strong vassals in your mix) out of the Autonomy faction is harder than managing a much more limited set of vassals in a traditional specific-type-of-revolt faction. Same with using your chancellor to improve diplomatic relations with faction members: they're still going to remain faction members probably at 100 opinion, but they'll just vote more positively.

The Autonomy faction in combination with patch 2.0 de jure tier liege levies, as it is, will basically make it well nigh impossible to manage an empire (or worse, a realm that straddles two de jure empires de facto) with anything but the most decentralized set of laws. That might be essentially a WAD outcome, or it may punish the king/emperor a little too severely for having a lot of vassals. It certainly promotes the arguments for using kings as vassals once you're an empire to a new level of relevancy (the debate, at least), as then you just might have a shot at being able to diplomatically manage your vassals well enough to avoid faction wars even with title revocation. OTOH, kings tend to really like their autonomy, although I don't know whether this is included in Meneth's weighting for faction membership or, most importantly, for voting. IMO, there is nothing about being a king under an emperor that is different from being a superduke under an emperor or a duke/superduke under a king, so they should not be intrinsically more difficult just because they're king vassals.

Which brings to mind a question, Meneth: I remember you saying that counts got 1 vote, dukes got 2, and kings got 3. Shouldn't it be something like 1 / 2 / 4 or 1 / 2 / 5? Or, better yet, you could scale the vote weight with the vassal's realm_size tier, regardless of title rank. This would make vote outcomes more fair and make it more clear/accurate which vassals to prioritize in your diplomatic undertakings. Since the faction action, if there is one, will include all faction members (let us assume all vassals), it is potentially very backwards to have the aggregate votes of certain relative nobodies that are more pissed-off (because they're rightly not a priority) trump the relative power of vassals that the liege can afford to favor. The realm_size tiers could break down into integer weights if you want, although that's not necessary to reduce complexity. I realize that going off realm_size requires considerably more lines of code to implement due to CK2's poor variable support (did I mention that EU4 1.4 will have full inter- and intra-scope variable comparison along with proper support for all arithmetic operators? hot damn. wrong game, though!), but since your weighting and mood summation is necessarily already too complex to be something that is actually directly visible to users, I don't see any reason to shy away from adding more complexity to vote weighting, given that it actually would make a big difference.

SUGGESTION: ... is it possible to disable the 'vassals have a meeting event' whilst one uprising over law is ongoing? It didn't happen, but the fact that I got an announcement a few months into the conflict that they were favouring the status quo raises the possibility of wars' constantly starting.
This is valid. There should be the equivalent of a do_not_disturb flag on the faction leader if there is an unresolved faction action ongoing. [Probably more like checking for any war in which the faction leader is an attacker, though not necessarily the primary attacker due to faction leaders changing upon death, and the liege is the primary defender.]
 

Meneth

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UPDATE: It got worse. I'm not even a year into the game, only three vassals have a negative opinion, and I have a 135% Strength faction clamouring for autonomy. This is in August. One year in, it's hovering at the 200% mark. But apparently the vassals are favouring the status quo according to an event?
Like ziji says, it's supposed to contain most of your vassals.

UPDATE 2: So, as I understand it, the autonomy faction decides every three years whether to stage an uprising over your laws, and thus isn't going to immediately murder me despite all being my friends?
If you treat them nice they should be neutral for the most part. Problem is that you're the Byzantine Empire, so your crown authority starts out really high. Vassals don't like that.

... and what are the Imperial Reconquest tiers with SWMH added in?
Roughly the same as in PB without SWMH, but I don't have a map I'm afraid.

OPINION 1: Uprisings are now frustratingly difficult, verging on nigh impossible. Even if you crush every sizeable rebel army, that gives enough time for some of your holdings to be sieged--which leads to playing whack-a-mole and having to split your army into as many groups as possible, because the garrisons won't reinforce in time to stop the 29-man levies that the rebels keep raising from taking them back. The result is spending years putting down a rebellion you outnumber 10-to-1, haemorrhaging funds, because you need to have a force on nigh on every loyalist province just to stop the warscore from plummeting due to distant vassals' castles being constantly sieged and reclaimed. And then, due to the siege issue, you have to start sieging the rebels... despite their total lack of military power by this point.

Maybe it would be easier if I had 30 retinue units. As it is...

Though I forgot White Peace meant the law didn't change.

... still, the inclusion of nigh on every vassal you possess has... problems.
That's more of an issue with how the AI doesn't properly combine its armies. Not too much that can be done about it.
I'll probably have an event at some point where it is possible for vassals that really like the liege to leave the faction before the actual revolt happens, at the cost of significant opinion penalties with everyone who stays in the faction.

SUGGESTION: ... is it possible to disable the 'vassals have a meeting event' whilst one uprising over law is ongoing? It didn't happen, but the fact that I got an announcement a few months into the conflict that they were favouring the status quo raises the possibility of wars' constantly starting.
Yeah, I'll try to remember to do that. They shouldn't meet while rebelling.
Edit: Done: https://github.com/Meneth/PB-git/commit/bb56b83ba3800f4e528040622effabd0ff2fc8b5
 
Last edited:

Raineh Daze

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I'll see if I can provide more feedback when my first ruler dies. Left the game paused with him in his mid sixties, fighting against a jihad, so I should have succession fun soon (even more fun as the empire encompasses most things from Serbia to the Caspian)
 

zijistark

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Right, I'm considering adding the new faction system to PB proper in the next version (coming between the 3rd and the 6th).
To ensure it works as well as possible out of the box though, I need more people to try it out.
You can download PB with the faction system here. Note that it replaces your current install, so delete or rename your current PB folder.

What I'm looking for is simple feedback:
  • Are there any bugs (most/all should've been eliminated by now)
  • Is it obvious enough why the faction is acting like it is?
  • Is the faction aggressive enough? Is it too aggressive? Is it just right?
Beyond that, suggestions for more that could be added is appreciated, but unless it is simple to implement will probably not make it into the first release version.

I've tried going through a few plays (I've exclusively used the factions branch of PB since resuming CK2 in December after a hiatus), but I really can't give you the kind of review that I'd like to. For one, I keep reverting to inevitably gaming the crap out of my vassals so that they love me (though I'm yet to get a positive action even in the most extreme cases), and second, my faction's relative power has never been too terribly high due to a strong demesne on my part. These two issues would go away if I'd actually play beyond 30 years and/or not start as a small duke that builds power from the ground up. Thus, I haven't been a very good playtester. The AI, OTOH, in those games is something to watch-- a little more difficult to see what the factions are doing, but you can see that their realms are not in constant revolt or apparently doing anything particularly out of the ordinary. ERE is an exception, but I don't think that's just a faction thing. Likewise, other endlessly unstable states (e.g., the England that forms after William wins in the earlier Stamford Bridge start vs. the Conqueror start-- AI doesn't understand that it needs to occupy as many county capital holdings as possible before accepting peace to acquire a decent demesne from which to rule, due to invasion CB mechanics) are still endlessly unstable. Still seen a lot of agnatic elective conversion as in days of old, which is a little annoying, but not anything new. All in all, France isn't in Russia, and the Vikings haven't settled the Holy Land, so things are about as normal as they get.

That said, the faction system as it is _at least doesn't seem to break anything_ and is certainly more interesting than without it, even with the limited exposure I've had to the possible faction actions. IMO, it's totally on track for going in the next PB release. Afterward, there will be much stronger feedback as well as renewed interest in the mod's latest version, you can stop maintaining 3 different branches, and it'll be a lot more clear how to polish it from there.

In lieu of any decent playtesting from me, I might give you a code review, as I haven't yet peaked into the faction events, and it could probably benefit a lot [particularly in the future] from 2 sets of eyes being fully familiar with it. While there don't seem to any bugs (i.e., stuff that causes obviously wrong or unstable behavior), there are surely possible oversights, a lot of room for silent error, and many polishing opportunities. Now that your initial development dust has settled on it, maybe it's time to give it a look.
 

Pravus

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Elective is showing up too often in too many games. This leads to the bizarre scenario of pagan kingdoms having more dynastic stability than Christian kingdoms could hope to have. Yikes.
 

Meneth

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Elective is showing up too often in too many games. This leads to the bizarre scenario of pagan kingdoms having more dynastic stability than Christian kingdoms could hope to have. Yikes.
It should be rarer than vanilla as the faction will only start if there's next to no crown authority in the kingdom/empire.
 

Raineh Daze

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It should be rarer than vanilla as the faction will only start if there's next to no crown authority in the kingdom/empire.

But isn't that how nigh on everything starts? The result being that almost everything will adopt Elective because of angry factions (starting in the Old Gods as the ERE, I have an intact theme system, so I guess I was immune to this demand)
 

Meneth

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But isn't that how nigh on everything starts? The result being that almost everything will adopt Elective because of angry factions (starting in the Old Gods as the ERE, I have an intact theme system, so I guess I was immune to this demand)
Well, the autonomy faction doesn't give a shit about succession laws. So all that's left to care is the actual elective faction.
I think I might've reduced the join modifier for it too, can't remember.
 

Undead Martyr

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Playing a Munso bastard dynasty of Egypt, keep crashing around 914 AD; currently in a war over Cyprus, this happened before and I circumvented with an earlier save.


ETA:
so starting from an earlier save and fast-forwarding, it seems to be something on the turn of the month; there's also a weird "end of the Exarchate" message that pops up involving a character who has a trait remarking that he "restored the kingdom of Israel" which probably has something to do with it as Israel was conquered by my viking hordes, not Khazarian Jews.:laugh:
 
Last edited:

Ruskhan

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Right, I'm considering adding the new faction system to PB proper in the next version (coming between the 3rd and the 6th).
To ensure it works as well as possible out of the box though, I need more people to try it out.
You can download PB with the faction system here. Note that it replaces your current install, so delete or rename your current PB folder.

What I'm looking for is simple feedback:
  • Are there any bugs (most/all should've been eliminated by now)
  • Is it obvious enough why the faction is acting like it is?
  • Is the faction aggressive enough? Is it too aggressive? Is it just right?
Beyond that, suggestions for more that could be added is appreciated, but unless it is simple to implement will probably not make it into the first release version.

it doesn't work with VIET, right?
 

Meneth

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How might I go about reducing that further?
Take a look in the 00_factions file and see if there's any modifiers you might be able to make apply to your vassals.

it doesn't work with VIET, right?
It should work with VIET Events. Probably not with VIET Immersion though.
 

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Playing a Munso bastard dynasty of Egypt, keep crashing around 914 AD; currently in a war over Cyprus, this happened before and I circumvented with an earlier save.


ETA:
so starting from an earlier save and fast-forwarding, it seems to be something on the turn of the month; there's also a weird "end of the Exarchate" message that pops up involving a character who has a trait remarking that he "restored the kingdom of Israel" which probably has something to do with it as Israel was conquered by my viking hordes, not Khazarian Jews.:laugh:

That's definitely a VIET issue, so you might want to make a bug report in the VIET thread.