Project Balance

[Meneth]

The reason why I mentioned the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy was that these kingdoms historically were, what would be called in game de jure HRE, but in game these are not.

I'm not asking for applying this to other empires, although in other cases having non de jure vassals join would make sense.

If 90% of Italy breaks free though, the remaining 10% really shouldn't be staying.

 

[Ruwaard]

If 90% of Italy breaks free though, the remaining 10% really shouldn't be staying.

I think, as you may have noticed, that we disagree here. The kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy were kingdoms of the HRE and if parts should be lost then IMHO that should proceed gradually and not instantly. Furthermore the HRE controlling the in game de jure HRE and the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy (there also were some changes in the Polish/Baltic border area) are not ugly borders since the HRE did control that area historically for most of the game.

 

[Meneth]

I think, as you may have noticed, that we disagree here. The kingdoms of Burgundy and Italy were kingdoms of the HRE and if parts should be lost then IMHO that should proceed gradually and not instantly. Furthermore the HRE controlling the in game de jure HRE and the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy (there also were some changes in the Polish/Baltic border area) are not ugly borders since the HRE did control that area historically for most of the game.

The borders get ugly when an independence revolt succeeds and the HRE holds onto a snake of Italian provinces, or a few Italian enclaves. If they lost control over 90% of Italy there's little chance they'd be able to control an enclave in the middle of Italy, an exclave by Genoa/Pisa, or a strange snake into Italian lands.

 

[Ruwaard]

The borders get ugly when an independence revolt succeeds and the HRE holds onto a snake of Italian provinces, or a few Italian enclaves. If they lost control over 90% of Italy there's little chance they'd be able to control an enclave in the middle of Italy, an exclave by Genoa/Pisa, or a strange snake into Italian lands.

Still I'm not in agreement here, the HRE apart from all the grand universalistic claims, had legitimate reasons to claim the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy and only stopped doing so because the empire was dissolved in 1806.

Also having exclaves and enclaves is quite medieval though I can give you a present day example, have you ever heard of Baarle? Or rather Dutch Baarle-Nassau (the lands historically held by the lord/baron of Breda) and Belgian Baarle-Hertog (the lands historically held by the duke of Brabant), the former is a municipality in North Brabant and the latter in Antwerp (province).

 

[Meneth]

Still I'm not in agreement here, the HRE apart from all the grand universalistic claims, had legitimate reasons to claim the kingdoms of Italy and Burgundy and only stopped doing so because the empire was dissolved in 1806.

Also having exclaves and enclaves is quite medieval though I can give you a present day example, have you ever heard of Baarle? Or rather Dutch Baarle-Nassau (the lands historically held by the lord/baron of Breda) and Belgium Baarle-Hertog (the lands historically held by the duke of Brabant), the former is a municipality in North Brabant and the latter in Antwerp (province).

Baarle has the slight advantage of not having the Alps in the way.

 

[superskierpat]

Baarle has the slight advantage of not having the Alps in the way.

"Impassable snowy mountains? Didn't those norse heathens we converted have long wooden sticks just for that?"

 

[unmerged(5040)]

To my knowledge the Novgorod-Kiev split makes more historical sense for the most part. SWMH splitting things up even further solidifies this idea.

The point is that the Russia were created quite fast due to the influx of vikings and that it were a natural concequence of the trade/plunder interests the norse had. It were thus a high probability event. It is true that Kiev Russ broke up later after 1050, but the first christian russian state had a large influence on Europe.

 

[unmerged(148491)]

The point is that the Russia were created quite fast due to the influx of vikings and that it were a natural concequence of the trade/plunder interests the norse had. It were thus a high probability event. It is true that Kiev Russ broke up later after 1050, but the first christian russian state had a large influence on Europe.

Problem as I see it is that in the game Kingdoms simply never (or almost never) fall apart, so once Norse would unify it, it would stay that way 19 out of 20 games till the end of campaign. Making it 2 kingdoms actually means just that - up until Mongols arrive ^^. Not sure if PB has some kingdom-title-removal mechanics that makes kingdoms fall apart, but I've not seen it so I guess it's not very likely to fire.

Btw. regarding update - did you have a chance to look into those troops I've mentioned earlier Meneth?

Also - I am pretty sure it ain't WAD, but playing in the baltics I am able to hire ghanan band - you know, the one from west africa.

 

[Tabris.BR]

Having a problem here while playing PB+VIET as Byzantine Empire. I just can't get a claim on Venice. It's not that the Chancellor is there but the event doesn't pop up, i can't put a chancellor in the province (I can put on in all the provinces that border the same seazone and i own all of the besides two. This gets even worse because i need Venice to form the Roman Empire; Venice, Genoa and Tunis are the only missing requirements right now.

 

[Frozensky]

Whoo, update. Will fire it up tomorrow.

I've noticed that while my Arabic cultural retinues have a bonus, the cultural buildings do not have any light cavalry bonuses listed for levies, nor is anything but the technology bonus listed when hovering over the troop type in a raised levy.

I looked at a couple of other cultures' buildings, and noticed that some of them had bonuses as normal and at least one other (Greek cataphracts, I believe) did not provide bonuses.

Wanted to check with you in case this was by design or if I borked something somehow.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Having a problem here while playing PB+VIET as Byzantine Empire. I just can't get a claim on Venice. It's not that the Chancellor is there but the event doesn't pop up, i can't put a chancellor in the province (I can put on in all the provinces that border the same seazone and i own all of the besides two. This gets even worse because i need Venice to form the Roman Empire; Venice, Genoa and Tunis are the only missing requirements right now.

"
It is not possible to fabricate claims on the capitals merchant republics. It is still possible to fabricate claims on their non-capital provinces"

From the changelog.

 

[Tabris.BR]

"
It is not possible to fabricate claims on the capitals merchant republics. It is still possible to fabricate claims on their non-capital provinces"

From the changelog.

So how an i suppose to form Rome them?

 

[unmerged(148491)]

So how an i suppose to form Rome them?

Are you supposed to do that? ^^ PB is about making things... hard - and more realistic... you know.

 

[cybrxkhan]

So how an i suppose to form Rome them?

I think you can use Imperial Reconquest in PB if you meet certain requirements. (Since you're playing with VIET, you also must have a lot of prestige.)

 

[civilizedAustin]

Regarding HRE independence wars, and for the sake of pretty borders, would it be technically doable to have only HRE vassals that don't share land connection with emperor, after an independence war, to recieve an event that would release them?

IMHO this would be a better solution for something I'm not entirely sure need fixing anyway. Otherwise great update!

 

[Tabris.BR]

I think you can use Imperial Reconquest in PB if you meet certain requirements. (Since you're playing with VIET, you also must have a lot of prestige.)

Really? I've used it when i was beginning but just thought it only worked for areas that were part of the Byzantine Empire more recently because i didn't get the option to use it for a loooong time. BTW, i'm using just VIET Events and Traits so i believe it doesn't mess with the CBs

 

[Marginal0]

Changes seem really good. This one might be a tad problematic - "Characters now get a bit of prestige upon becoming a councilor" - but then again, there's no real bonus to powergaming this (except making all your family members counsilor once and firing them immediately).

Just for the record: VIET (and all the other compatible mods) is compatible with PB+SMH too, right?

 

[Melnerag]

Just 'finished' a play-through in Western Africa. Was using an earlier beta-build+swmh+VIET's portraits. Sharing some observations:

-Ultimogeniture was still available to pagans
-AI lost some defensive wars because instead of defending, he tried to march his armies to my capital and lost almost all his troops to attrition. (Probably an issue PB can't fix)
-At one point (Late in the game) I've decided to invade Sicily. I was gathering my army (it took a while), in the meantime the Sicilians and their allies had a 60+doomstack waiting for me. Unfortunately by the time I -did- land the doomstack got reduced a lot due to attrition. Again, probably not something PB can fix.
-Those cultures in the sahara sometimes have european building-graphics
-HRE is oddly stable. They lost Italy as advertised, but then incorporated Hungary, England and Sweden as whole kingdoms. They lost England entirely, lost Hungary for a few years (but reclaimed it)
-Ilkhanate was....outrageously stable. They claimed the steppes, persian empire, arabia and Byzantine Empire and are holding this all together still. Despite having several king-tier vassals of wrong culture and religion.
-Any chance Ilkhanage can be prevented from warring for the kingdom of the Kipchaks so that it goes into persia? And Golden Horde should not war for Khiva. I pity the Horde, they got stomped by Ilkhans and are now limited to the Kingdom of Perm, doing nothing.

[May be increase the chance of factions declaring war if liege is in an offensive war, reducing it if he is at peace? Indep-faction should also declare war in case of a defensive war, since they clearly don't care. I had a good deal of faction-strife in my empire, and I actually had to surrender to the enemy I was attacking and pay reparations due to a rebellion which I just barely crushed.]

And at last, very enjoyable game. No crashes, no glitches. I love seeing the traits limit your ability to wage war.

 

[Ruwaard]

Regarding HRE independence wars, and for the sake of pretty borders, would it be technically doable to have only HRE vassals that don't share land connection with emperor, after an independence war, to recieve an event that would release them?

IMHO this would be a better solution for something I'm not entirely sure need fixing anyway. Otherwise great update!

If this would be able to implement, then IMHO this might be compromise for the argument I had with Meneth on this matter. IMHO it would even be more plausible, then the current system, since it would take into account that they share a border and it will also allow for pretty borders without forcing a too rapid disintegration.

EDIT: perhaps something like this?

any_neighbor_province = {
        owner = {
            top_liege = {
                has_landed_title = e_hre
            }
        }
    }

 

[Meneth]

Btw. regarding update - did you have a chance to look into those troops I've mentioned earlier Meneth?

Also - I am pretty sure it ain't WAD, but playing in the baltics I am able to hire ghanan band - you know, the one from west africa.

Haven't had time to look into it yet, no.
Fix for Ghanan Band has now been committed.

Having a problem here while playing PB+VIET as Byzantine Empire. I just can't get a claim on Venice. It's not that the Chancellor is there but the event doesn't pop up, i can't put a chancellor in the province (I can put on in all the provinces that border the same seazone and i own all of the besides two. This gets even worse because i need Venice to form the Roman Empire; Venice, Genoa and Tunis are the only missing requirements right now.

Use Imperial Reconquest.

Whoo, update. Will fire it up tomorrow.

I've noticed that while my Arabic cultural retinues have a bonus, the cultural buildings do not have any light cavalry bonuses listed for levies, nor is anything but the technology bonus listed when hovering over the troop type in a raised levy.

I looked at a couple of other cultures' buildings, and noticed that some of them had bonuses as normal and at least one other (Greek cataphracts, I believe) did not provide bonuses.

Wanted to check with you in case this was by design or if I borked something somehow.

I'll have to look into it.

Changes seem really good. This one might be a tad problematic - "Characters now get a bit of prestige upon becoming a councilor" - but then again, there's no real bonus to powergaming this (except making all your family members counsilor once and firing them immediately).

Just for the record: VIET (and all the other compatible mods) is compatible with PB+SMH too, right?

It's a max of 200 prestige, so it shouldn't cause any issues.
VIET Events works with PB+SWMH.

Just 'finished' a play-through in Western Africa. Was using an earlier beta-build+swmh+VIET's portraits. Sharing some observations:

-Ultimogeniture was still available to pagans
-AI lost some defensive wars because instead of defending, he tried to march his armies to my capital and lost almost all his troops to attrition. (Probably an issue PB can't fix)
-At one point (Late in the game) I've decided to invade Sicily. I was gathering my army (it took a while), in the meantime the Sicilians and their allies had a 60+doomstack waiting for me. Unfortunately by the time I -did- land the doomstack got reduced a lot due to attrition. Again, probably not something PB can fix.
-Those cultures in the sahara sometimes have european building-graphics
-HRE is oddly stable. They lost Italy as advertised, but then incorporated Hungary, England and Sweden as whole kingdoms. They lost England entirely, lost Hungary for a few years (but reclaimed it)
-Ilkhanate was....outrageously stable. They claimed the steppes, persian empire, arabia and Byzantine Empire and are holding this all together still. Despite having several king-tier vassals of wrong culture and religion.
-Any chance Ilkhanage can be prevented from warring for the kingdom of the Kipchaks so that it goes into persia? And Golden Horde should not war for Khiva. I pity the Horde, they got stomped by Ilkhans and are now limited to the Kingdom of Perm, doing nothing.

[May be increase the chance of factions declaring war if liege is in an offensive war, reducing it if he is at peace? Indep-faction should also declare war in case of a defensive war, since they clearly don't care. I had a good deal of faction-strife in my empire, and I actually had to surrender to the enemy I was attacking and pay reparations due to a rebellion which I just barely crushed.]

And at last, very enjoyable game. No crashes, no glitches. I love seeing the traits limit your ability to wage war.

- Ultimogeniture should be impossible (except for Mongols). Make sure you check in the latest version
- Yeah, I can't do much about the military AI
- Which ones?
- Sometimes they expand, yeah. Not much I can do
- In my games the Il-Khanate/Golden Horde usually collapses after a while, but it varies
- I'm not sure there's much I can do to direct the hordes

If this would be able to implement, then IMHO this might be compromise for the argument I had with Meneth on this matter. IMHO it would even be more plausible, then the current system, since it would take into account that they share a border and it will also allow for pretty borders without forcing a too rapid disintegration.

EDIT: perhaps something like this?

any_neighbor_province = {
        owner = {
            top_liege = {
                has_landed_title = e_hre
            }
        }
    }

The issue is that beyond single-province enclaves, identifying enclaves is not easily doable.