Project Balance

[Jaidal]

[...]
Not enough posts, sadly. PB is still only has about half as many posts as the stickied mod with the least amount of posts, Game of Thrones. But odn't worry, Meneth, we'll ensure that one day PB will be up there!

What would really help, imo, would be BLC Compatibility.

On the other hand, How long do you think it will take for VIET to be fully compatible with Pb for v1.09? Also, since it is included in VIET Immersion module, will you still be making a vanilla PB compatible version of Cultures and Portraits? Good luck with your progress anyway.

 

[Meneth]

How is this mod still not a sticky?

Because PB is still the biggest of the less popular mods, not the smallest of the most popular mods

But hey, it passed 2500 replies today. There have been over 200 posts since I released 3.1.0 4 days ago. At this rate we'll catch up soon enough.

 

[Meneth]

Both the reformed Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. Played a vanilla Byzantine Empire -> Roman Empire game were my empire had shattered provinces within the HRE...

My thoughts:
Perfect: CrackdToothGrin's suggestion for different names depending on perspective (Catholic/Orthodox would probably be a good split). Too bad it's probably not doable. (Well, I suppose you could have an event which renames the realms at the start of game/whenever the player switches religion. Not very elegant though and it wouldn't work in MP)
Pretty good: Eastern Roman Empire. Related to what they actually called themselves, but not quite correct. In a way, it reflects the way the catholic world refused to recognize them as the true Rome, though not in the way it actually happened. Also different enough from the HRE.
Pretty good: Empire of the Greeks/ Greek Empire. What the catholic world called them. Fits very well for when you're playing a catholic and watching them across the map, not so much when you Orthodox, especially not when you're the Greek Empire. Gives the LoR event more power, which is great. Very different from the HRE.
Works: Byzantium. Unhistorical, but very recognizable. Has the same benefits as the Empire of the Greeks otherwise, but personally I'd say that the Rome Reformed event has less punch than if they were the Empire of the Greeks.
Works: Rhōmania. Very historical, but the least recognizable option. Good since as far, as I understand, it was an accepted term in the west. Problematic with the LoR event since either the Roman Empire should also be named in Greek, or the event will make it switch to English. Both options are a bit clunky.
Least good: Roman Empire. Accurate in their self-naming, less accurate in what the west called them. Looks weird along with the HRE. Undermines the LoR event.

Yeah, there's sadly no perfect solution.
If people have no objection to "Greek Empire" I'll probably go with that. Empire of the Greeks is too long though.

<snip>
2. Having perhaps unified cultures for when you form an empire? Like forming the British empire title will create a British culture that slowly spreads, Scandinavians get Scandinavian/Norse, Spain gets Spanish, Francia goes from Frankish to French, Roman Empire(If this possible) gets Latin.(Although if the Byzies do it then nm they'd likely want it Greek)
unlike idea one this one is a more longshot idea so not really much more to say haha.
<snip>

Most of the rest of that doesn't work for various reasons Crackd mentioned. As to unified culture that doesn't make much historical sense except in Scandinavia, where there was almost no difference between the cultures in 1066.

If you decide to reduce their income, you should look into improving the benefits of upgrading Estates and Trade Posts, as right now there is little incentive to do so as the benefit of setting up new trade posts is incredibly high, and the return on investment into some buildings is very low. Is there a way you could modify the seize city CB to require you to already have a tradepost present (Dev Diaries said that would be the case, but it isn't) as that might help slow things down as well due to the cost reduction on tradeposts from nearby land owned. Also, are you thinking of including the Hansa in any way? Having just gotland in the north is a bit weird.

I'll be looking into it.

Isn't the ERE kind of getting the shaft?

In what way? They usually lose their starting war against the Seljuks, then either maintain status quo, or slowly decline. I've seen them recover Armenia at times even.

So, I'm going to try this mod out. I'm a CK2+ fan but whilst I wait for the update, I'm going to give this one a shot because vanilla is crazy enough to drive someone up a wall. I've heard good things about it, and whilst I like the innumerable changes CK2+ makes, I'm happy to settle with less changes for now if it means I get to avoid vanilla.

While PrincyThany and CK2+ not being updated yet sucks for fans of the mods, it is definitely great for me. I don't think I've ever seen PB downloaded so much in such a short period of time

I have the opposite view of the cultural names: I do think that it adds a lot of flavor to a place when it changes names to reflect the conqueror, and one of my fondest wishes is to have Romano-Greek names for the entire conquerable map to go along with LoR's restored Roman Empire mechanic. I don't think it's confusing for a general player -- while it's important for ruler titles and realm titles to be understandable to the average player, I don't think the average player knows Apulia from Longobardia nor Salerno from Melfi. They're all just squares on a map, but the flavor enhancement of name changing is huge -- especially for Greeks reconquering the Empire, Turks conquering the Greeks, Welsh people retaking England, etc etc -- there's SIGNIFICANCE to that which enhances the experience.

But that's just my two cents, and this is my first time playing this mod so I don't have built up credibility with you folks or anything...

It does add quite a bit of flavor, but sadly is also more than a bit of work. So for something as balance oriented as PB it is pretty much not going to happen unless someone other than me decides to code it.

What would really help, imo, would be BLC Compatibility.

Feel free to convince richvh to make a compatible version

 

[Malibu Stacey]

Because PB is still the biggest of the less popular mods, not the smallest of the most popular mods

But hey, it passed 2500 replies today. There have been over 200 posts since I released 3.1.0 4 days ago. At this rate we'll catch up soon enough.

PB is an excellent mod & should get a lot more exposure/recognition than it has already. However I can't imagine the dev's should be too pleased that it pretty much does their job (as in making vanilla a good game as well as keeping it relatively historical accurate).

Yeah, there's sadly no perfect solution.
If people have no objection to "Greek Empire" I'll probably go with that. Empire of the Greeks is too long though.

Personally if you used Basileia Rhōmaiōn I'd have no objections but Greek Empire works just as well. Is it possible to have a different name assigned if you play as them or otherwise?

While PrincyThany and CK2+ not being updated yet sucks for fans of the mods, it is definitely great for me. I don't think I've ever seen PB downloaded so much in such a short period of time

I've been meaning to try out Project Balance for a while (haven't played any other mods) as vanilla CKII can be ridiculously frustrating in it's current state so I decided to wait for the 1.09 release since I'd have to start a new game anyway. I expect there are others in the same boat. Hopefully all the people playing with this have the stats tracking in CKII enabled so PDS get to see how many of us think the vanilla CKII needs a lot of work.


The one tiny thing I don't particularly like about PB is the limit on changing crown laws. I like the separation of crown authority into 3 laws but only being able to change one per ruler doesn't really work (especially if like me you didn't go for allowing title revocation first as it's pretty much required to rule any sort of realm). If it's possible, some more information for new players in this area (event popup first time you open the laws screen?) would help.
I love the demesne laws though, much more sensible than vanilla.

Also have you thought about tweaking the map any more at all? 2 county duchies really irritate me as it's all but impossible to stop the duchies being created as soon as one of the counts gets the requisite amount of gold. From what I've read the SWMH mod has done a lot of this so some collaboration might save time/effort if you decide to look into this.

Quick question, I was looking for a decent steward to invite to my court last night & noticed cousins are correctly referred to as such & also have an opinion modifier for "is a close relative". Is this a vanilla 1.09 feature or something added by Project Balance as I haven't seen it in 1.08 or earlier.

 

[Meneth]

Personally if you used Basileia Rhōmaiōn I'd have no objections but Greek Empire works just as well. Is it possible to have a different name assigned if you play as them or otherwise?

It'd probably be possible, yes. Could have the start-up event check e_byz and all vassals for ai = no, and in that case use Basileia Rhōmaiōn instead, while using Greek Empire if there's no players within Byz.
Thoughts?

The one tiny thing I don't particularly like about PB is the limit on changing crown laws. I like the separation of crown authority into 3 laws but only being able to change one per ruler doesn't really work (especially if like me you didn't go for allowing title revocation first as it's pretty much required to rule any sort of realm). If it's possible, some more information for new players in this area (event popup first time you open the laws screen?) would help.

Sadly the 1 law-change per ruler is hard-coded. It would be possible to go around it through decisions, but that's not that great a workaround.
As to more information, I could probably add a 'tutorial' event triggerable by the start-up event, so one only gets it if one clicks that button. The real question is what I'd put there.

Also have you thought about tweaking the map any more at all? 2 county duchies really irritate me as it's all but impossible to stop the duchies being created as soon as one of the counts gets the requisite amount of gold. From what I've read the SWMH mod has done a lot of this so some collaboration might save time/effort if you decide to look into this.

I too hate 2-county duchies, but getting rid of them isn't much of a priority right now. There are fewer of them than in vanilla at least

Quick question, I was looking for a decent steward to invite to my court last night & noticed cousins are correctly referred to as such & also have an opinion modifier for "is a close relative". Is this a vanilla 1.09 feature or something added by Project Balance as I haven't seen it in 1.08 or earlier.

Not something I did at least.

 

[esbenmf]

Greek Empire is good for me also.

Esben

 

[Meneth]

Greek Empire is good for me also.

Esben

That's good.

Meneth

 

[Sleight of Hand]

That's good.

Meneth

Let's take a vote.

Asbjørn

 

[Imusen]

1000 gold bars to whoever makes this work with SWMH

 

[Rutee]

I might be wrong, but it seems like your mod broke republics - they keep building up one trade post instead of buying new ones. I'm probably going to have the baltic covered before they buy a second post at this rate.

 

[Meneth]

I might be wrong, but it seems like your mod broke republics - they keep building up one trade post instead of buying new ones. I'm probably going to have the baltic covered before they buy a second post at this rate.

I haven't done anything to the AI weights for Republic stuff, so I'm not sure how that could be. I'll look into it though.

Edit: Republics are definitely building new trade post in my test game. After 5 years, each of the republics have built a new trade post.

 

[G.Strategos]

That's good.

Meneth

Empire of the Greeks would be great...
Just a random guy...

 

[blackhelm]

Just an fyi - some of the ports are different between PB and vanilla, which I think is altering the AI calculations for where and when to build trade posts - for specific examples compare Caligiari btwn PB and vanilla, and the island of Crete. I think vanilla changed certain ports to allow "trade zone control" in every coastal sea region, so that multiple consecutive sea zones can be easily linked into a single family trade zone. I did notice a substantial difference between playing as a Republic in vanilla as opposed to PB - much more rapid trade post expansion, leading to cuthroat wars of trade, consolidation of trade zones, etc - at least until the Super-Fatimids arrived (I quit vanilla yet again after the Fatimids once again miraculously conquered most of Greece and then Sicily in a three month period). So to back up Rutee, I think that there is something in the AI republic logic regarding trade zones that might have changed in PB. Also, the republic families alternate btwn Agnatic Gavelkind (as a secondary family) and Seniority (as the doge) now, because apparently baronies can't be seniority in PB, which also might have changed something.

And because I rarely post, I'd like to take this opportunity to say thanks for making a nicely rounded "total overhaul" mod that doesn't actually "totally overhaul" everything, so I can get that vanilla feel without the silliness of it all.

 

[Meneth]

Hmm. That could definitely be affecting things somewhat, I suppose. I'll look into it.

As to the succession law issue, that should have been fixed by 3.1.2, and I'm not seeing the issue anywhere in my current build.

Glad you like the mod

 

[Andrzej I]

It'd probably be possible, yes. Could have the start-up event check e_byz and all vassals for ai = no, and in that case use Basileia Rhōmaiōn instead, while using Greek Empire if there's no players within Byz.
Thoughts?

I rather like this idea, myself, and think it's a nice balance between the different sides.

Oh, and I'd also love to see a PB + SWMH mod. I love their map, but love PB's mechanics. It's a tough choice.

 

[Meneth]

Oh, and I'd also love to see a PB + SWMH mod. I love their map, but love PB's mechanics. It's a tough choice.

Compatibility is sadly quite difficult to achieve (and maintain) between such large projects.
And using SWMH for PB itself would probably be outside the scope of PB, no?

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

Compatibility is sadly quite difficult to achieve (and maintain) between such large projects.
And using SWMH for PB itself would probably be outside the scope of PB, no?

Too bad there wasn't a way to easily and quickly crossmojinate all the different bajangles and make it so they did work together. I tried once, but my portmanteau was an abyssmal failure. It was like Dr. Moreau.

 

[Meneth]

Too bad there wasn't a way to easily and quickly crossmojinate all the different bajangles and make it so they did work together. I tried once, but my portmanteau was an abyssmal failure. It was like Dr. Moreau.

One guy did manage to get SWMH+PB working, the issue is that the only way for it to work was essentially as a complete merge of PB and SWMH, which neither I nor the SWMH team are comfortable with.

 

[Malibu Stacey]

It'd probably be possible, yes. Could have the start-up event check e_byz and all vassals for ai = no, and in that case use Basileia Rhōmaiōn instead, while using Greek Empire if there's no players within Byz.
Thoughts?

If it's not too much hassle to code I'd go with something like this personally. Makes more sense historically. Ideally you'd be able to localize titles so a Muslim player would see it as Rum/Rome etc. but I suspect that's not supported yet.

As to more information, I could probably add a 'tutorial' event triggerable by the start-up event, so one only gets it if one clicks that button. The real question is what I'd put there.

Something like the "Choose Wisely" quote from Indiana Jones & the Last Crusade so the player knows that if they change one of the 3 crown authority laws they'll be unable to change another until succession happens (or their face melts off, whichever happens first) as you can severly hamper yourself if you pick the 'wrong' law for your first ruler like I did.

I too hate 2-county duchies, but getting rid of them isn't much of a priority right now. There are fewer of them than in vanilla at least

I might try having a look at the ones which exist in clusters like in Ireland, England & Denmark & see if I can give you something to work with. Good to know I'm not the only one who gets irritated by them though.

 

[cybrxkhan]

As for Greek Empire, I still like Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire.

But I could easily change that myself, so no worries.

On the other hand, How long do you think it will take for VIET to be fully compatible with Pb for v1.09? Also, since it is included in VIET Immersion module, will you still be making a vanilla PB compatible version of Cultures and Portraits? Good luck with your progress anyway.

I keep pushing the ETA back, unfortunately. Originally it was Tuesday-Thursday, then Friday, now Saturday or even SUnday is looking more likely. All I have to do right now anyhow is add in the new Republics and bare skeletons of the patrician families (so they're playable at least in the 1066 start), and run one test game to make sure nothing explodes.

As for CPR an update for that will be later. And of course there will always be a PB-compatible version for CPR.

I'm firmly in the PB camp, after all. Thrown my gauntlet in with Meneth

Because PB is still the biggest of the less popular mods, not the smallest of the most popular mods

But hey, it passed 2500 replies today. There have been over 200 posts since I released 3.1.0 4 days ago. At this rate we'll catch up soon enough.

Man, I go to sleep and PB explodes with posts. I guess with Wiz getting hired at PI and not having time to work as much on CK2+, and the Prince and Thane still sort of out of action, that's more opportunities for PB to pick up some new fans when it comes to overhaul mods. (Not that CK2+ and the Prince and Thane are bad or anything. )