Project Balance

[CrackdToothGrin]

About the whole Roman naming thing...

The Byzantines just called themselves the "Roman Empire," Western Europe called them the "Empire of the Greeks" and the muslims just called them "Rome."

The HRE called themselves the "Roman Empire" until 1157, the "Holy Empire" under Barbarossa, and "Holy Roman Empire" from around 1254 onwards.

It would be neat if you could set it up so that, if you are playing as a Western Nation, you saw the HRE as the "Roman Empire" and Byzantion as "Empire of the Greeks." On the flipside, if you played as Byzantion, you would be the "Roman Empire" and the HRE would be the "Empire of the Germans."

Is that possible?

 

[cybrxkhan]

For Republics I would also suggest in the long-term finding a way to reduce their income, as that seems to be the most OP aspect of them - they get so much money they hire craploads of mercenaries.

 

[Meneth]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...mini-Dungeons-and-Sieges-An-Imprisonment-Game!

I haven't tested too much yet

Looks like it should be compatible. I'll add it to the list.

About the whole Roman naming thing...

The Byzantines just called themselves the "Roman Empire," Western Europe called them the "Empire of the Greeks" and the muslims just called them "Rome."

The HRE called themselves the "Roman Empire" until 1157, the "Holy Empire" under Barbarossa, and "Holy Roman Empire" from around 1254 onwards.

It would be neat if you could set it up so that, if you are playing as a Western Nation, you saw the HRE as the "Roman Empire" and Byzantion as "Empire of the Greeks." On the flipside, if you played as Byzantion, you would be the "Roman Empire" and the HRE would be the "Empire of the Germans."

Is that possible?

Not possible to my knowledge.

For Republics I would also suggest in the long-term finding a way to reduce their income, as that seems to be the most OP aspect of them - they get so much money they hire craploads of mercenaries.

Reducing their income a bit would help slow down their growth as well, I suppose.

 

[MagicCuboid]

Wow, this board is way chattier than TWCenter's! I'm sad I missed my chance to chime in on my interpretation of the game's "English" culture.

For the topic most persistently at hand though... I personally changed it to "Roman Empire". I mean, really, that's what they called themselves, that's what everyone else called them (when not simply saying "the greeks" or "the romans"), that's what they were. However badly Germany and the Pope wanted to pretend they were persisting the Roman Empire with HRE, the Romans really were still alive and kicking. I think calling them anything other than "Roman Empire" is simply our Western bias against the Eastern Romans that has persisted since the schism.

 

[Meneth]

Wow, this board is way chattier than TWCenter's! I'm sad I missed my chance to chime in on my interpretation of the game's "English" culture.

Nothing is set in stone, so feel free to chime in.

For the topic most persistently at hand though... I personally changed it to "Roman Empire". I mean, really, that's what they called themselves, that's what everyone else called them (when not simply saying "the greeks" or "the romans"), that's what they were. However badly Germany and the Pope wanted to pretend they were persisting the Roman Empire with HRE, the Romans really were still alive and kicking. I think calling them anything other than "Roman Empire" is simply our Western bias against the Eastern Romans that has persisted since the schism.

Yeah, I'm leaning a bit towards simply having both e_byzantium and e_roman_empire be named "Roman Empire".

 

[billydilly]

Hi,

I keep getting a ctd after I choose a country and press Play.
I have the latest version of PB and the vanilla game works. I noticed one thing though, I cant play as a republic with PB, is that right?

I found this in the log file:
[persistent.cpp:40]: Error: "Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 630
" in file: "interface/objectives.gfx" near line: 637
[persistent.cpp:40]: Error: "Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1440
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1447
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1454
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1461
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1468
" in file: "interface/traits.gfx" near line: 1475

 

[MagicCuboid]

Oh I see now what the issue is. We want to distinguish the Eastern Romans from the possible "reclaimed Roman Empire"? I can see where the other side comes from, in that case, because it is deeply rewarding to be told, "you've reformed the ROMAN EMPIRE!!!". Still, they didn't really have another name. No biggy for me either way, the file was easy enough to change .

 

[Meneth]

Hi,

I keep getting a ctd after I choose a country and press Play.
I have the latest version of PB and the vanilla game works. I noticed one thing though, I cant play as a republic with PB, is that right?

I found this in the log file:
[persistent.cpp:40]: Error: "Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 630
" in file: "interface/objectives.gfx" near line: 637
[persistent.cpp:40]: Error: "Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1440
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1447
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1454
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1461
Unexpected token: spriteType, near line: 1468
" in file: "interface/traits.gfx" near line: 1475

You should be able to play as a republic as long as you've got the DLC.

Looks to me like you're using some other mod together with PB, and that's causing the issue. As PB's objectives.gfx simply doesn't have a line 637, it ends at 238.

 

[billydilly]

Thanks, I'll reinstall then

 

[September]

Oh I see now what the issue is. We want to distinguish the Eastern Romans from the possible "reclaimed Roman Empire"? I can see where the other side comes from, in that case, because it is deeply rewarding to be told, "you've reformed the ROMAN EMPIRE!!!". Still, they didn't really have another name. No biggy for me either way, the file was easy enough to change .

Both the reformed Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. Played a vanilla Byzantine Empire -> Roman Empire game were my empire had shattered provinces within the HRE...

My thoughts:
Perfect: CrackdToothGrin's suggestion for different names depending on perspective (Catholic/Orthodox would probably be a good split). Too bad it's probably not doable. (Well, I suppose you could have an event which renames the realms at the start of game/whenever the player switches religion. Not very elegant though and it wouldn't work in MP)
Pretty good: Eastern Roman Empire. Related to what they actually called themselves, but not quite correct. In a way, it reflects the way the catholic world refused to recognize them as the true Rome, though not in the way it actually happened. Also different enough from the HRE.
Pretty good: Empire of the Greeks/ Greek Empire. What the catholic world called them. Fits very well for when you're playing a catholic and watching them across the map, not so much when you Orthodox, especially not when you're the Greek Empire. Gives the LoR event more power, which is great. Very different from the HRE.
Works: Byzantium. Unhistorical, but very recognizable. Has the same benefits as the Empire of the Greeks otherwise, but personally I'd say that the Rome Reformed event has less punch than if they were the Empire of the Greeks.
Works: Rhōmania. Very historical, but the least recognizable option. Good since as far, as I understand, it was an accepted term in the west. Problematic with the LoR event since either the Roman Empire should also be named in Greek, or the event will make it switch to English. Both options are a bit clunky.
Least good: Roman Empire. Accurate in their self-naming, less accurate in what the west called them. Looks weird along with the HRE. Undermines the LoR event.

 

[richvh]

Couldn't you do the renaming of the two Roman Empires by tag switching events during startup?

 

[shadow121292]

I have some ideas that I was gonna roll off theres a lot so sorry for the long post but bear with me haha

1. Saw peoples opinions on the name changes and I agree with a lot of them but I did find a way to make a use of the mechanic without making things to confusing

First limit it to at the highest duchy level locations, possibly kingdom if it really is pertinent.
Second with that limitation to duchy's at most make the cultures be restricted to only plausible aka no German Athen for Athens a more elaborated example of this would be England:

As we know during the timeline of CK2 there are a lot of different cultures on the British Isles most who at varying points or another had different levels of control on the areas.
to represent this allow name changes for only those cultures relevant to the area with the example I'm using of London

English: London - This one we don't have to add to the list because it's the standard localisation for the english speaking game
Norman: Londres - Since Norman is a variant of French I am presuming to a degree that Normans would have called London similar thus when they hold it becomes Londres.
Saxon: Lunden - This one is a bit optional I guess
Welsh: Llundain - Never controlled London after being pushed out by Saxons but plausible with right player or lucky AI
Scottish: Lunnainn - Since at this time Scottish was Scottish Gaelic I included it in this example but I guess we could also leave it out of the list of plausibles
Irish: Londain - Irish in same situation as Welsh
Danish/Norwegian/Swedish: London - Since it's exact same as English doesn't need to be added.

Thus you can essentially go around the different regions look at who has the potential to take an area and rename it around that. Some areas like most likely Germany will have only one plausible culture there and thus will remain stagnant name others like Sicily, the Levant, England will have different cultures at different times making it realistic to have changes

Some ideas on which are plausible cultures for regions:
Scandinavia: Obviously just the three nordic cultures maybe Finnish as well?
France: Norman, Breton, Frankish, and Occitan. For Eastern provinces along edge of HRE German
Hispania: Portuguese, Andalusian Arabic, Catalan, and Spanish
Italy: Italians, Sicilian, Greek, Norman(For the brief Norman sicily era) and maybe German in the case of a HRE that is strong and can control Italy for a long time
Levant:Arabic, Latin cultures, and Greeks
Greece/Anatolia:Turks, Greeks, Latin cultures

thats all of my two cents on the naming debacle.

2. Having perhaps unified cultures for when you form an empire? Like forming the British empire title will create a British culture that slowly spreads, Scandinavians get Scandinavian/Norse, Spain gets Spanish, Francia goes from Frankish to French, Roman Empire(If this possible) gets Latin.(Although if the Byzies do it then nm they'd likely want it Greek)
unlike idea one this one is a more longshot idea so not really much more to say haha.

3. Changing name of Sicilian culture in the Greek culture group to Griko? An actual ethnic group that exists in Southern Italy heres a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people, my idea on this is it makes southern italy more interesting and a bit more accurate then the current setup of having everybody be sicilian down there(Even if they get the different colors to say they are in a different culture group.)

4. Arab-Sicilian culture in case Normans get lazy and don't conquer Sicily the island or a player plays as them and conquers Southern Italy?

5. Anglo-Norse culture maybe for the case of a Norway victory against Harald and William the Conqueror? This is another kinda eh idea I had cause in a lot of ways I'm sure the norse would prefer that the culture becomes just norweigan.

and thats all I can think of

 

[Jaidal]

[...]

Reducing their income a bit would help slow down their growth as well, I suppose.

If you decide to reduce their income, you should look into improving the benefits of upgrading Estates and Trade Posts, as right now there is little incentive to do so as the benefit of setting up new trade posts is incredibly high, and the return on investment into some buildings is very low. Is there a way you could modify the seize city CB to require you to already have a tradepost present (Dev Diaries said that would be the case, but it isn't) as that might help slow things down as well due to the cost reduction on tradeposts from nearby land owned. Also, are you thinking of including the Hansa in any way? Having just gotland in the north is a bit weird.

 

[imperiumiv]

Isn't the ERE kind of getting the shaft?

 

[Ruwaard]

I think Eastern Roman Empire fits nicely with Holy Roman Empire (which was none of the three, I know).
But hey changing it is trivial for those of us who know how to edit CSV files

ahem for the former (in smallest size) (one word: definitions) , but I do agree with the latter.

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

I have some ideas that I was gonna roll off theres a lot so sorry for the long post but bear with me haha

1. Saw peoples opinions on the name changes and I agree with a lot of them but I did find a way to make a use of the mechanic without making things to confusing

(description)
(examples)

Thus you can essentially go around the different regions look at who has the potential to take an area and rename it around that. Some areas like most likely Germany will have only one plausible culture there and thus will remain stagnant name others like Sicily, the Levant, England will have different cultures at different times making it realistic to have changes

Imagine the difficulty in finding the historically plausible border regions in game, and then localizing them inside the landed_titles file, by region-specific language, and then the consideration for renmaing provinces according to their original owners in the timeframe (out of the interest of fairness). With over sixty cultures, and almost 1,000 provinces, that is a lot of work.

Some ideas on which are plausible cultures for regions:
Scandinavia: Obviously just the three nordic cultures maybe Finnish as well?
France: Norman, Breton, Frankish, and Occitan. For Eastern provinces along edge of HRE German
Hispania: Portuguese, Andalusian Arabic, Catalan, and Spanish
Italy: Italians, Sicilian, Greek, Norman(For the brief Norman sicily era) and maybe German in the case of a HRE that is strong and can control Italy for a long time
Levant:Arabic, Latin cultures, and Greeks
Greece/Anatolia:Turks, Greeks, Latin cultures

thats all of my two cents on the naming debacle.

In theory, it would be neat to have something implemented like that. Referencing my earlier point, it would be an assload of work. To draw from my own experiences, I made a personal map of the Reconquista area with over 700 provinces, each named according to their time-specific owners, with alternates for control switching. Ultimately, they end up being different names for places we already have words for. Seems easier and fair, in my opinion, to just use english. Doesn't impact the history at all.

2. Having perhaps unified cultures for when you form an empire? Like forming the British empire title will create a British culture that slowly spreads, Scandinavians get Scandinavian/Norse, Spain gets Spanish, Francia goes from Frankish to French, Roman Empire(If this possible) gets Latin.(Although if the Byzies do it then nm they'd likely want it Greek)
unlike idea one this one is a more longshot idea so not really much more to say haha.

The ideas of nationalism doen't really take hold in history until hundreds of years after the timeframe of the game, for the most part. Plus it would be a lot of work. The only places I can really think of this being a remote possibility would be the ERE, and Iberia/Southern italy on a local scale in the late medieval period.

3. Changing name of Sicilian culture in the Greek culture group to Griko? An actual ethnic group that exists in Southern Italy heres a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people, my idea on this is it makes southern italy more interesting and a bit more accurate then the current setup of having everybody be sicilian down there(Even if they get the different colors to say they are in a different culture group.)

But Sicilian is neutrally-demonymic, as opposed to Griko which represents the remnants of Hellenized italians and Greek descendants. The first one allows for any combination of rulers to form a distinct group, and saves Meneth from making and implementing at least three separate new cultures.

4. Arab-Sicilian culture in case Normans get lazy and don't conquer Sicily the island or a player plays as them and conquers Southern Italy?

Then Sicily would stay the same as it is at the start of the game? It had been that way for a while prior to the 1066 start.

5. Anglo-Norse culture maybe for the case of a Norway victory against Harald and William the Conqueror? This is another kinda eh idea I had cause in a lot of ways I'm sure the norse would prefer that the culture becomes just norweigan.

and thats all I can think of

I honestly don't think an Anglo-Norse culture is necessary, but that's a personal thing. Scandinavian invaders very rarely pulled off anything to the degree that William I did, and besides, the peoples of the Isles were not that different from the Norse in many ways. There's a strong incentive to believe that the Norse would have just ruled like a tributary, without wholesale cultural replacement. William literally removed almost every single ruling official and injected his linguistic and legal influence everywhere.

 

[Federalist girl]

So, I'm going to try this mod out. I'm a CK2+ fan but whilst I wait for the update, I'm going to give this one a shot because vanilla is crazy enough to drive someone up a wall. I've heard good things about it, and whilst I like the innumerable changes CK2+ makes, I'm happy to settle with less changes for now if it means I get to avoid vanilla.

As for the name of the ERE: I would say Roman Empire is just fine, and is consistent with the names of everything else. Eastern Roman Empire is too long and makes the name look smooshed, and the whole point of big empires is to see the name in a giant font size, right?? I personally prefer Basileia Rhomaion -- but that's what I personally prefer and it'll take me two seconds to change it myself. For the general audience, Roman Empire is better.

I have the opposite view of the cultural names: I do think that it adds a lot of flavor to a place when it changes names to reflect the conqueror, and one of my fondest wishes is to have Romano-Greek names for the entire conquerable map to go along with LoR's restored Roman Empire mechanic. I don't think it's confusing for a general player -- while it's important for ruler titles and realm titles to be understandable to the average player, I don't think the average player knows Apulia from Longobardia nor Salerno from Melfi. They're all just squares on a map, but the flavor enhancement of name changing is huge -- especially for Greeks reconquering the Empire, Turks conquering the Greeks, Welsh people retaking England, etc etc -- there's SIGNIFICANCE to that which enhances the experience.

But that's just my two cents, and this is my first time playing this mod so I don't have built up credibility with you folks or anything...

 

[Jaidal]

So, I'm going to try this mod out. I'm a CK2+ fan but whilst I wait for the update, I'm going to give this one a shot because vanilla is crazy enough to drive someone up a wall. I've heard good things about it, and whilst I like the innumerable changes CK2+ makes, I'm happy to settle with less changes for now if it means I get to avoid vanilla.[...]

I personally enjoy both.

 

[Sqwerlpunk]

How is this mod still not a sticky?

 

[cybrxkhan]

So, I'm going to try this mod out. I'm a CK2+ fan but whilst I wait for the update, I'm going to give this one a shot because vanilla is crazy enough to drive someone up a wall. I've heard good things about it, and whilst I like the innumerable changes CK2+ makes, I'm happy to settle with less changes for now if it means I get to avoid vanilla.

It's a CK2+ heretic!

But anyhow I guess PB and CK2+ offer pretty different things to users, most people tend to prefer one or another (or Prince and Thane). PB is very obsessed with keeping things as close to vanilla as possible, though, in a good way (though what is "close to vanilla" is subjective, I think Meneth for the most part has strictly adhered to that very admirably).

How is this mod still not a sticky?

Not enough posts, sadly. PB is still only has about half as many posts as the stickied mod with the least amount of posts, Game of Thrones. But odn't worry, Meneth, we'll ensure that one day PB will be up there!