Progressing as Prussia, when thrown out of HRE?

[Commander-DK]

I'm playing my first playthrough with the Emperor DLC - as Brandenburg progressing to Prussia. Long story short, I have the original territories, Mecklenburg, Saxony-Lauenburg, and Lübeck, Pomerania and all of East and West Prussia. I recently annexed Riga and Livonian Order, who were my vassals (Russia took 1/3 of Livonian order though). I have also taken Holsteen, Schleswig and Kolding from Denmark.

I am allied to Poland (and their PU Lithuania), but when I formed Prussia around 1545, they threw me out of the HRE for naming myself king. I thought I had the votes and backing, but I didn't.

Spain took France almost 100 years ago in a PU, but is all about colonies right now. Great Britain also.

Poland and Ottomans split Hungary between them, and Ottomans also hold the Pontic Steppes all the way to Kazan, blocking Russia's expansion in the south. Novogorod survived by allying the Polish, so Russia is also blocked to the north.

The Leagues Wars were over in less than 2 years - Austria wiped the floor with all the protestant minors - not a single big nation joined the protestant side (I had just been thrown out of the HRE and was eager not to be the first and only big one to join).

My main problem is that there isn't much to do now in 1595 - except take a bite of Denmark every 15 years.

Austria is huge - through a series of peace deals they have taken 1/4 of the HRE for themselves and also 1/2 of the Dutch and Flemmish territories. And the two other major states in the HRE are Bavaria and Bohemia, who support Austria.

The roadblock is that even with Poland-Lithuania's backing, if I attack any of the west german miniors to expand Prussia south or west, Austria not only defends them with 182K but calls in her own allies; Tuscany (1/4 of Italy), Russia (still pretty big) and a string of HRE miniors. They outnumber us 3:2 in every scenario, and I don't feel like an 8-year slugging match with 1.5 million dead for 1-2 provinces?

Ottomans are waiting to pounce on Poland, my only ally. And Austria /HRE and Russia squeeze us like a sandwich. France is no help, because of the PU. And Spain and UK - even though rivalling Austria - couldn't care less.

My three rivals are Denmark (a dying power), Bohemia (backed by Austria) and Austria itself.

Do I simply have to "fast forward" until SOMETHING breaks in this stalemate?

 

[Terixis]

If Russia doesn't have you set as a rival you can ally them, build up 50 favors, and then force them to break their alliance with Austria. Otherwise you can ally the Ottoblob who are always happy to kill the Austrians.

 

[bokorthedust]

Your best bet is to betray Poland, and pick up the Ottomans as an ally. He'll be interested in Austrian wars, and will bring his presumably huge punch to help you along. If you can ally some electors and fight a war with the rest, you can also dismantle the HRE so Austria isn't in the way every time, and you decrease the AE you'd gain by taking land as an external power.

Also, if you turn against Poland you can possibly also pick up Russia, and turn him against the Austrians. Or, if you declare only with the Ottomans, you can separate peace the Russians and break the Austrian alliance.

 

[Jespoke]

For future reference, if the emperor rejects your kingship, you only get kicked out if you still declare yourself king anyway, not if you back down.
Also, if the emperor has you as a rival, they will never agree to let you be king no matter what anyone votes.

 

[Nostalgium]

Also, if the emperor has you as a rival, they will never agree to let you be king no matter what anyone votes.

Worth noting that you can have Austria as a rival just fine, though.

 

[Surimi]

One of the great things about Prussia is that you don't actually need to expand all that much to be really powerful. In fact, with the harsh government capacity penalties, expanding too much can be detrimental.

Prussia is not the best land in the world, but it's also not terrible. I would focus on devving and building for a bit. You can dramatically raise your income, which will help you out later. Also, you may not feel hugely confident doing this, but consider betraying Poland. Their land is a lot more valuable than Scandinavia.

It is pretty viable as Prussia to just ignore the HRE and focus on expanding east. You will end up being deceptively strong, so taking on nations larger than you might not be such an issue long term.

 

[Commander-DK]

If Russia doesn't have you set as a rival you can ally them, build up 50 favors, and then force them to break their alliance with Austria. Otherwise you can ally the Ottoblob who are always happy to kill the Austrians.

Nope. Russia won't ally because they rival Poland-Lithuania (whose ally is Novogorod), so Russia won't come near me.

And Ottomans rival Poland-Lithuania also, so they won't help me / ally either.

 

[jonjowett]

It sounds like you think you can win a war against the HRE, but it'll be a bit painful. If that's correct, why not bite the bullet and dismantle the HRE? It's vaguely historical for Prussia to do so, and it might help to break the stalemate. And it'll make westwards expansion a lot easier - Polish lands are nice, but German lands are better (same culture group => free acceptance at empire-tier).

Allies: If you're east of the HRE and going against Austria, I would normally suggest France. But, since they've been PU'd by Spain, try for Spain instead? GB can make for a good distraction, but aren't a particularly good ally for land wars. And finally, if you want to dismantle, allying electors makes things a lot easier...

 

[Nostalgium]

Polish lands are nice, but German lands are better (same culture group => free acceptance at empire-tier).

I personally find the opposite is true when playing Brandenburg. German land is better/more efficient when you hit Empire-tier, but until then, Poland proper (i.e. not Lithuania's starting territory) has more dev under one culture, so you only need to accept the one big one instead of all the minor German ones for max yield. Additionally, Poland has excellent dev potential through all the grass and farmland, as well as an excellent territory to build army from, as lots of the provinces produce Livestock (for bonus MP) and grain (for bonus FL). Getting Poland early is almost always my go-to as Brandenburg => Prussia.

 

[jonjowett]

I personally find the opposite is true when playing Brandenburg. German land is better/more efficient when you hit Empire-tier, but until then, Poland proper (i.e. not Lithuania's starting territory) has more dev under one culture, so you only need to accept the one big one instead of all the minor German ones for max yield. Additionally, Poland has excellent dev potential through all the grass and farmland, as well as an excellent territory to build army from, as lots of the provinces produce Livestock (for bonus MP) and grain (for bonus FL). Getting Poland early is almost always my go-to as Brandenburg => Prussia.

It's 1545, so I thought it was a fair assumption that OP is very close to empire-tier. Also, OP's one reliable ally is Poland, and he can probably get a bit more use out of them before backstabbing. If either of those weren't true then I'd agree with you - as Brandenburg, taking out Poland is usually the best strategy!

 

[Nostalgium]

It's 1545, so I thought it was a fair assumption that OP is very close to empire-tier.

If OP had been close to Empire-tier in 1545 with Austria owning most of the Empire, then Denmark, Bohemia and Poland wouldn't be rivals/allies on the presumed account of them no longer existing - where else would he have expanded? Besides, not everyone can/want to grab 1K dev in Europe in the first quarter of the game.

 

[Commander-DK]

UPDATE:

The game partially "fixed" itself.

In 1602, the Austrian emperor of HRE died - with only a girl heir. As a consequence, every single catholic elector (there are no reformed or protestant ones) decided Bavaria should be emperor instead.

No more Austrian and Russian backing for Hamburg, Verden, Bremen, Anhalt etc.

 

[agonistes]

Nope. Russia won't ally because they rival Poland-Lithuania (whose ally is Novogorod), so Russia won't come near me.

And Ottomans rival Poland-Lithuania also, so they won't help me / ally either.

You made the mistake of allying the nations you should have expanded into, and allowing bad alliances to form.

I get it, it happens. Now read the current landscape and change up your alliances. If you can't protect Poland, Poland is toast. So decide who your new ally will be and chase it.

It seems that you are in danger, so Spain is an obvious choice. Then pick up Russia or Otto.

Another option is to pick up a ton of middle weights, get your favors up, and strike at an opportune time.

Personally, it seems like a fun game.

I personally find the opposite is true when playing Brandenburg. German land is better/more efficient when you hit Empire-tier, but until then, Poland proper (i.e. not Lithuania's starting territory) has more dev under one culture, so you only need to accept the one big one instead of all the minor German ones for max yield. Additionally, Poland has excellent dev potential through all the grass and farmland, as well as an excellent territory to build army from, as lots of the provinces produce Livestock (for bonus MP) and grain (for bonus FL). Getting Poland early is almost always my go-to as Brandenburg => Prussia.

I used to think so. But now I view it as unnecessary ae that slows me down. I'd rather pounce on Lubeck node and vassal conquer into hre, and rush west/south africa gold mines. Sometimes the chamce to vassalize hamburg, lubeck, amd bremen is rare, and you don't want high ae if the opportunity comes. For Brandenburg. TO is a different story.