Production Questions

[Daelyn75]

After watching the first World War Wednesday, I have many questions about production. Although I don't expect any dev response, I would like to hear what all of you guys think. The production aspect of the game is something I had dreamed about back around the time when HOI II was going to be released. I likened production to something that was in War in Russia, and Pacific war, both early 90s Gary Grisby SSI games. They had production in it as well, though not anything like what is going into HOI IV. I still laugh and I even made a post about it about a year back making fun of the naysayers that said it could never be done in HOI because tracking your tanks and airplanes would be too much for a computer to handle.

1: Do you think that the production in this game will be used to a lesser extent in Victoria III? All the old PDS games used a military unit as something manufactured. The men and their equipment in one, and they were treated as a complete unit. Now much of the equipment is separated from the soldiers in HOI IV. Couldn't this work in Victoria III which takes place in the heart of the Industrial Revolution? Muskets/Rifles, individual ships Cannons, then early trucks, tanks, and airplanes easily fit the era between 1820-1920. Not that I've played any of the Victoria games, but if production is in like in HOI IV, then I am already sold.

2: Will production greatly expand once war kicks in? Johan actually had not too bad truck production near the end of the video, 16+ per day, but I noticed everything else besides rifles was really low. Jakob's aircraft production of just a few a month though, was painful. I know he was short on resources, so it was reduced by a third, but that's still really low. I know he was building industry, but maybe he just needed to devote more to it? Yes I understand efficiency and how it gets better the longer that line of factories produces that equipment.

3: Older equipment used as training equipment? I'm sure this isn't in the game right now, but it would be nice to use those biplanes or obsolescent tanks that you start the game with for training purposes so that your newer equipment doesn't breakdown. Actually if you don't equip the units with the newest production, then they sort of are using the old equipment as training equipment. But it would be nice to select your older air units and tanks and just tag them as to be used for training.

4: How real is it to massively expand all civilian industries in 1936 like was done in the video, and what does it cost to build factories? Now this one had me wondering simply because the world is recovering from the Great Depression, and as soon as the game begins every country in the world fills out their nation to max capacity with new factories on January 1st 1936. Yeah, I know it is a game, but what does it cost to build factories other than wait time? Does it require resources? Does it require production time from your other factories? If it just requires time to build and nothing else, then I would question this. It should IMO take resources at least, and possibly time from your existing factories as well.

5: The last question leads me to the next - Do you think the AI should massively expand their industry to max, like the player most likely would as soon as the game begins? Should the AI not act like it historically would on January 1st 1936? Some industry I can easily see, but every possible slot to max as soon as the game begins just seems unrealistic to me. I know the AI needs a chance to win, but then that argument can easily lead to - then why not give them bonuses over the player like virtually all strategy games tend to do.

6: Why didn't Jakob trade for his resources needed as soon as the game begin? Johan had nearly all his resources as Britain, except a little bit of oil. But Jakob was hit rather hard with the lack of resources. I think he will trade for them in the next video, but why not start right away? Was it because he was nearly all focused on creating new factories which don't cost resources, before beginning his general production to fill out the German military?

7: The BEF was on paper all motorized, yet this wasn't the actual case - Do you think the British should get a focus to fill out 9 divisions with enough trucks by commandeering them from the public as what they historically did? I remember reading this in Blood, Tears, and Folly by Len Deighton. The BEF was partially motorized, and they actually took what they needed from the public to fill out the rest. It might help out a lot with that initial army that you send to the continent to help France. I was reminded of this since Johan tried to fill out the entire land forces of Britain with trucks to make them all motorized.

8: Will armored vehicles/halftracks also be something that can be manufactured as well? I suppose these vehicles weren't created at the very beginning of the war, but they were used in the war. They were scouts as well as what troops were transported in. Yes, they usually had a gun on top of them as well so they were like lightly armored tanks.

9: Is there a chance for vehicles to just be damaged and then repaired? I've been following this game for as long as it was announced, and I am an old time PDS game player, but I forget if this is in or not. There is a reliability rating for each equipment correct? So if it breaks, does that mean it's just gone? And not out for repairs? I'm guessing it's just gone right now. Maybe in the future equipment it can be repaired. I believe that warships will be the only production that will be able to be sent back to be repaired like in all previous HOI games.

10: Can units still be outfitted with not enough equipment and sent into battle? I remember a dev writing something like this a long time ago - that a division can be given just one rifle and then sent out to fight. It wouldn't be very good at all, but it can be done.

11: Production changed to a new piece of equipment and the efficiency will suffer - do you not think that if a tank is being built by factories that a variant of that tank should be just a small suffering of efficiency, or does it go back to the beginning?

12: Nations such as Japan that are isolated will never be able to get foreign equipment unless the Axis members are willing to give it to them, but obviously not in a time of war? Say Japan wants to fill out a few motorized divisions, but doesn't want to manufacturer them. Is there really no way that they could get them if they follow the historical path of being at war with China and the Allies? I doubt Germany could reasonably fill out Japans needs since they themselves need those trucks badly that they might produce. What I am saying is, only nations that are in your sphere of interest like France and Britain were to the USA might be will have a good chance of getting lend lease equipment, correct? Japan is sort of the odd man out when it comes to lend lease as it is in the game because if they go historically, who would give it to them?

 

[Victor Cortez]

1: Do you think that the production in this game will be used to a lesser extent in Victoria III?

It might be too detailed for Vic III. But that's just my opinion.

2: Will production greatly expand once war kicks in?

I suppose so. Considering efficiency plus better tech, I would expect output to go up quite a bit.

3: Older equipment used as training equipment? I'm sure this isn't in the game right now,

I think it is in the game.

4: How real is it to massively expand all civilian industries in 1936 like was done in the video, and what does it cost to build factories?

My understanding is that there's no a cost as such, but if you build factories and later on you don't have the resources to make them work, you're wasting your time (which could have been used to build forts etc...)

5: The last question leads me to the next - Do you think the AI should massively expand their industry to max, like the player most likely would as soon as the game begins?

I think resources are the key.

6: Why didn't Jakob trade for his resources needed as soon as the game begin?

Because if you "buy" resources, you "sell" civilian IC, which means you can build less factories.
I'm not sure it's a good strategy, but we will see.

7: The BEF was on paper all motorized, yet this wasn't the actual case - Do you think the British should get a focus to fill out 9 divisions with enough trucks by commandeering them from the public as what they historically did?

No idea. Maybe an event?

8: Will armored vehicles/halftracks also be something that can be manufactured as well?

I think so.

9: Is there a chance for vehicles to just be damaged and then repaired?

No.

10: Can units still be outfitted with not enough equipment and sent into battle?

Yes.

11: Production changed to a new piece of equipment and the efficiency will suffer - do you not think that if a tank is being built by factories that a variant of that tank should be just a small suffering of efficiency, or does it go back to the beginning?

Depends on how big of a change that is.

12: Nations such as Japan that are isolated will never be able to get foreign equipment unless the Axis members are willing to give it to them, but obviously not in a time of war? Say Japan wants to fill out a few motorized divisions, but doesn't want to manufacturer them. Is there really no way that they could get them if they follow the historical path of being at war with China and the Allies? I doubt Germany could reasonably fill out Japans needs since they themselves need those trucks badly that they might produce. What I am saying is, only nations that are in your sphere of interest like France and Britain were to the USA might be will have a good chance of getting lend lease equipment, correct? Japan is sort of the odd man out when it comes to lend lease as it is in the game because if they go historically, who would give it to them?

Not sure I understand.

 

[Daelyn75]

Not sure I understand.

I meant that lend lease which is the only way to trade equipment right now, will be difficult for certain nations like Japan. Unless Japan goes and helps the Allies, then I cannot see them getting anything from the USA, Britain, or France. Typically I would assume that Japan would go the historical path, and this way they'd have to supply all their own production for it.

 

[Denkt]

1. I could see it be used in some form in Vicky III however I don't know what to say.
2. You should have better and better production technology as the game advances. You can convert civilian factories into military factories and you need for consumer goods will go down as you mobilize your economy. More strategic resources can be acquired by closing your economy of the foreign market.
3. Yes old equipment are used for training.
4. Civilian factories cost 7500 production compared to 5500 production for military factories. Civilian factories are a long term investment that is mainly useful for countries that will enter the war later.
5. Yes, the ai should try to play the game as well as possible.
6. Don't know, maybe he was more interested in using his civilian factories to build more civilian factories.
7. He can very well afford to build all trucks he needs, the easier we make it for UK the harder time the axis will have which is not really wanted.
8. Their are mechanized vehicles.
9. No, it is either working or it is destroyed. However the game may say that 20 damaged vehicles would cost as much to fix as producing 2 new vehicles.
10. I think you need at minimum 10% equipment before you can field the division.
11. Depend on how large the change is, a variant change would be a smal loss while change to an aircraft would lose all efficiency.
12. If they wan't trucks they could just build them.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Yes old equipment are used for training.

My understanding was that training causes attrition of whatever equipment you are using. Is there a way to specify that a division template should use old equipment? That would be a nice checkbox, since you could construct "training divisions" and later upgrade them to the field division templates. Of I guess just have some sort of 'prioritize old equipment' checkbox for divisions.

 

[Denkt]

I think the game can change out your equipment while you train.

 

[Daelyn75]

1. If they wan't trucks they could just build them.

I know that, but I mean that certain nations will find it difficult to get foreign equipment.

 

[GsusNSV]

It will be hard for Germany or Italy to Lend-Lease to Japan. Because the equipment must be transported by ship there. All the way through enemy water.
Same will be true for GB. If Germany manages to sink enough convoys, the British won't have any or very few Shermans and so on.

 

[Axe99]

Interesting questions - adding to what Victor and Denkt have said:

1: Do you think that the production in this game will be used to a lesser extent in Victoria III? All the old PDS games used a military unit as something manufactured. The men and their equipment in one, and they were treated as a complete unit. Now much of the equipment is separated from the soldiers in HOI IV. Couldn't this work in Victoria III which takes place in the heart of the Industrial Revolution? Muskets/Rifles, individual ships Cannons, then early trucks, tanks, and airplanes easily fit the era between 1820-1920. Not that I've played any of the Victoria games, but if production is in like in HOI IV, then I am already sold.

I would love for this to be the case. I've played a decent amount of both Vickys, and think they're great games. Given the long timespan, and that old equipment kicked around a bit during the period, having it in the game would work well. I'd see the simplification in the range of models (so just have tanks, rather than light, medium and heavy) but the factory/production model could work quite well with Vicky - particularly for production of goods - you could have civilian lines employing people and building stuff as well. We can dream .

2: Will production greatly expand once war kicks in? Johan actually had not too bad truck production near the end of the video, 16+ per day, but I noticed everything else besides rifles was really low. Jakob's aircraft production of just a few a month though, was painful. I know he was short on resources, so it was reduced by a third, but that's still really low. I know he was building industry, but maybe he just needed to devote more to it? Yes I understand efficiency and how it gets better the longer that line of factories produces that equipment.

At this stage, we don't know, but a few more World War Wednesdays and we should have an answer to this one . One thing I noticed was neither the UK nor Germany were able to build near as many ships as they were actually building in 1936 (Germany was actually going pretty hard on naval production in '36). I think there'll be room for modding to make the pattern of production more historically plausible (which ties in with your 'cover the world in factories' comment as well ).

3: Older equipment used as training equipment? I'm sure this isn't in the game right now, but it would be nice to use those biplanes or obsolescent tanks that you start the game with for training purposes so that your newer equipment doesn't breakdown. Actually if you don't equip the units with the newest production, then they sort of are using the old equipment as training equipment. But it would be nice to select your older air units and tanks and just tag them as to be used for training.

It is, but only for land units. Aircraft and naval vessels don't train at this stage. It's worth noting with equipment=supply that old equipment will be used up more rapidly than it was in the war, as each unit of supply that gets shipped to the unit is replacing new for old, so I suspect (we have to see how it works out, but this is my best guess) there'll be less old equipment kicking around than there was historically (which imo is a shame, and one of the reasons for having separate supply in the game - I want to see pre-war tanks defending Normandy!).

4: How real is it to massively expand all civilian industries in 1936 like was done in the video, and what does it cost to build factories? Now this one had me wondering simply because the world is recovering from the Great Depression, and as soon as the game begins every country in the world fills out their nation to max capacity with new factories on January 1st 1936. Yeah, I know it is a game, but what does it cost to build factories other than wait time? Does it require resources? Does it require production time from your other factories? If it just requires time to build and nothing else, then I would question this. It should IMO take resources at least, and possibly time from your existing factories as well.

For the UK, in 1936, it's crazy unrealistic. Would be for the US as well. I'm not sure about Germany, but I think they were expanding their armaments industry at the time, Japan may have been as well. I think we'll need to rely on mods to get a more historically plausible feel for the pre-way industrialisation rush. Worth noting that HoI1-3 were also fairly off the mark here as well. With the split between civilian, military and naval factories, we should have more modding levers to make this play out more plausibly if we so desire .

5: The last question leads me to the next - Do you think the AI should massively expand their industry to max, like the player most likely would as soon as the game begins? Should the AI not act like it historically would on January 1st 1936? Some industry I can easily see, but every possible slot to max as soon as the game begins just seems unrealistic to me. I know the AI needs a chance to win, but then that argument can easily lead to - then why not give them bonuses over the player like virtually all strategy games tend to do.

I'm hoping that the AI will play like a player will - so if it's best for a player to 'cover the world in factories', then the AI will too. That said, I'm hoping it'll be moddable to make the pre-war industrialisation more plausible, and that the AI will be able to adapt to this. I wouldn't be a fan of the AI not industrialising if the player is going to do it, regardless of how plausible it is, nine times out of ten.

7: The BEF was on paper all motorized, yet this wasn't the actual case - Do you think the British should get a focus to fill out 9 divisions with enough trucks by commandeering them from the public as what they historically did? I remember reading this in Blood, Tears, and Folly by Len Deighton. The BEF was partially motorized, and they actually took what they needed from the public to fill out the rest. It might help out a lot with that initial army that you send to the continent to help France. I was reminded of this since Johan tried to fill out the entire land forces of Britain with trucks to make them all motorized.

At the start of the war, there was a lot of acquisition of things by the military, in many nations. I think this is probably best handled by events, perhaps with the amount of gear depending on civilian factories, say. It would be a cool event .

8: Will armored vehicles/halftracks also be something that can be manufactured as well? I suppose these vehicles weren't created at the very beginning of the war, but they were used in the war. They were scouts as well as what troops were transported in. Yes, they usually had a gun on top of them as well so they were like lightly armored tanks.

There's something called mechanised equipment (I'm pretty sure - there was at some stage), and I'm fairly sure this represents half/tracks and universal carriers and the like.

12: Nations such as Japan that are isolated will never be able to get foreign equipment unless the Axis members are willing to give it to them, but obviously not in a time of war? Say Japan wants to fill out a few motorized divisions, but doesn't want to manufacturer them. Is there really no way that they could get them if they follow the historical path of being at war with China and the Allies? I doubt Germany could reasonably fill out Japans needs since they themselves need those trucks badly that they might produce. What I am saying is, only nations that are in your sphere of interest like France and Britain were to the USA might be will have a good chance of getting lend lease equipment, correct? Japan is sort of the odd man out when it comes to lend lease as it is in the game because if they go historically, who would give it to them?

Some kind of arms (or equipment) trade in the game would be cool (and historically appropriate), but we've been told it won't be there at launch at the very least.

He can very well afford to build all trucks he needs, the easier we make it for UK the harder time the axis will have which is not really wanted.

Technically, if they're making a 1936-48 sandbox game, there's no sensible justification for nerfing the UK . I also don't think giving the UK trucks for it's divisions will make a huge difference to the Battle of France. Also, if things play out historically, and they get captured equipment in the game later, Germany gets to 'inherit' a lot of those trucks when the Brits cross back over the channel, so if they get captured equipment in the game down the track, giving the Brits more trucks will buff Germany in some situations .

My understanding was that training causes attrition of whatever equipment you are using. Is there a way to specify that a division template should use old equipment? That would be a nice checkbox, since you could construct "training divisions" and later upgrade them to the field division templates. Of I guess just have some sort of 'prioritize old equipment' checkbox for divisions.

I'm fairly confident we've been told there are priorities for reinforcement and equipment - so we can prioiritise new and prioritise old (for garrison divisions or what-have-you). Don't think we've seen a lot of detail on this though.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

For the UK, in 1936, it's crazy unrealistic. Would be for the US as well. I'm not sure about Germany, but I think they were expanding their armaments industry at the time, Japan may have been as well. I think we'll need to rely on mods to get a more historically plausible feel for the pre-way industrialisation rush. Worth noting that HoI1-3 were also fairly off the mark here as well. With the split between civilian, military and naval factories, we should have more modding levers to make this play out more plausibly if we so desire .

How many of those factories and dockyards that he queued up would he actually complete before the war, given the shown build costs?

I'm fairly confident we've been told there are priorities for reinforcement and equipment - so we can prioiritise new and prioritise old (for garrison divisions or what-have-you). Don't think we've seen a lot of detail on this though.

I also remember talk about equipment priority, but I figured it had to do with who was first in line for the newest available equipment. Maybe there is a training priority, that actually prefers to use old equipment?

 

[blue_yonder]

A thread on production prompts me to ask a question on something which puzzles me. In DD24, Johan shows a screenshot of factories, each with its own icon. He explains that this level of detail is so we can see the status of each one – under construction, being repaired, etc. In amongst those icons are three which look like they must be synthetic refineries, and I daresay there are other icons for rocket sites and nuclear plants.

My question is, what happens when these get bombed? We all know that when a military factory is hit, this harms output from the lowest priority up, because the factories are nebulous and not tied to one specific location. Bombing any given dockyard no doubt has the same effect. But if civilian factories are equally nebulous, how is the damage apportioned? Some of them are making us synthetic rubber and oil, others are working on behalf of Venezuela or wherever to pay for their oil, while others are building more factories/infra/blah. If we suffer a heavy raid and lose 5% output until we can repair, do we write Venezuela a raincheck but otherwise carry on as normal, or stop making tyres and condoms for a month or two, or what?

 

[Vidkjaer]

3: Older equipment used as training equipment? I'm sure this isn't in the game right now, but it would be nice to use those biplanes or obsolescent tanks that you start the game with for training purposes so that your newer equipment doesn't breakdown. Actually if you don't equip the units with the newest production, then they sort of are using the old equipment as training equipment. But it would be nice to select your older air units and tanks and just tag them as to be used for training.

In the division template you can set each template if it is low, normal or high priority. Newest equipment will go high priority divisions, oldest to the low priority divisions. How it works for training i dont know. I hope it automaticaly uses old equipment for having two exact template copies of each division - one for training and one for combat - would be a pain..

4: How real is it to massively expand all civilian industries in 1936 like was done in the video, and what does it cost to build factories? Now this one had me wondering simply because the world is recovering from the Great Depression, and as soon as the game begins every country in the world fills out their nation to max capacity with new factories on January 1st 1936. Yeah, I know it is a game, but what does it cost to build factories other than wait time? Does it require resources? Does it require production time from your other factories? If it just requires time to build and nothing else, then I would question this. It should IMO take resources at least, and possibly time from your existing factories as well.

To construct new civilian factories you use your present civilian factories to build them.... and it takes time. It does not consume any resources. I dont think you would reach max capacity of factories in every single state. It takes a lot of time.
the player could also use (some) civilian factories to trade for resources and get a production line efficiency going early on. From the national focuses we could see that some focuses give you factories - civiilian and military.

6: Why didn't Jakob trade for his resources needed as soon as the game begin? Johan had nearly all his resources as Britain, except a little bit of oil. But Jakob was hit rather hard with the lack of resources. I think he will trade for them in the next video, but why not start right away? Was it because he was nearly all focused on creating new factories which don't cost resources, before beginning his general production to fill out the German military?

I wondered that my self also. I guess he wanted to use all of his civilian factories to build new factories. But at a rate of 1 factory for 4 resources. He could use 2 factories to get an efficient production line going for fighters and bombers (trading for oil). I havent crunched the numbers, but i guess i would do that - just for the realistic gameplay.

11: Production changed to a new piece of equipment and the efficiency will suffer - do you not think that if a tank is being built by factories that a variant of that tank should be just a small suffering of efficiency, or does it go back to the beginning?

You will keep some of the efficiency.

Personally i am more interested in the consumer goods. The amount of civilian factories needed for consumer goods is dependent on your total amount of factories and is produced by civilian factories. At present, i dont think there is any penalty for producing divisions early on. Germany produced planes in 1936, not soldiers. There should be an incentative to produce ships and/or planes when not at war. In HOI3 consumer good demands went up the more divisions you produced in peacetime. I think that should be the case also i HOI4. Mainly for adding a strategic option regarding what to produce early on. Jacob Munte in the DEV play video produced divisions as fast as he could in order to get to 60 division (or was it 90) to be able to annex austria through the National Focus requirement.
I actually think there is a little fault in the game here. Jacob produced 3 brigade infantry divisions to get to 60 divisions. He could also just have created a template with just one infantry battalion and then produce them. That would get him 9 times faster (3x3 infantry battalions) to the required 60 divisions to annex Austria. That would save him a lot of weapons early on (and soldiers) and therefore i think there should be an incentative to produce ships and planes instead of spitting out 3 brigade infantry divisions an mass.
What do you guys think?

 

[EntropyAvatar]

My question is, what happens when these get bombed? We all know that when a military factory is hit, this harms output from the lowest priority up, because the factories are nebulous and not tied to one specific location. Bombing any given dockyard no doubt has the same effect. But if civilian factories are equally nebulous, how is the damage apportioned? Some of them are making us synthetic rubber and oil, others are working on behalf of Venezuela or wherever to pay for their oil, while others are building more factories/infra/blah. If we suffer a heavy raid and lose 5% output until we can repair, do we write Venezuela a raincheck but otherwise carry on as normal, or stop making tyres and condoms for a month or two, or what?

Synthetic plants are separate from civilian factories, so I would assume you just lose the oil and rubber the synthetic was producing. I think that the civilian factories you give out in exchange for resources you simple don't have, so those won't be affected. The rest are consumer goods need and construction projects. I'd guess construction projects would suffer first there.

 

[Denkt]

Civilian factories seems to work on a pritority that looks like this:

1. Consumer goods
2. Trade (Called Trade Goods)
3. Construction project (these are prioritised in the same way as military production)

 

[Felrisen]

I agree with Vidkjaer, I think one brigade divisions would have satisfied the requirement to annex Austria, even though it is a gamey solution.

The worse feature for me though was the automatic building of seemly unlimited factories at the very start of the game. I mean it's 1936, the height of the great depression. Factories were shut and unemployment was at record highs. Where would nation states get the wherewithal to go on such a massive building programme? I know about FDR's New Deal and Deficit spending and all that not to mention Germany's Autobahn programme etc. But the effects were gradual not instantaneous.
I know there's no money in the game but there should be some mechanism to limit the sort of building we were seeing in the World War video.

 

[Denkt]

The one battalion suggestion is not free because you need to spend about 25 experience to create that division and look how much time it take to get that experience which can be put into much better use.

 

[Vidkjaer]

I agree with Vidkjaer, I think one brigade divisions would have satisfied the requirement to annex Austria, even though it is a gamey solution.

The worse feature for me though was the automatic building of seemly unlimited factories at the very start of the game. I mean it's 1936, the height of the great depression. Factories were shut and unemployment was at record highs. Where would nation states get the wherewithal to go on such a massive building programme? I know about FDR's New Deal and Deficit spending and all that not to mention Germany's Autobahn programme etc. But the effects were gradual not instantaneous.
I know there's no money in the game but there should be some mechanism to limit the sort of building we were seeing in the World War video.

Building slots in states are limited by infrastructure and population.
Your proposal could be met by seing the population as available workforce, or workforce who can get a job. A national focus could then increase that workforce modeling a better ecoonmy. Wartime could also increase it - modeling every men and women joing the workforce to make weapons and ammonution.
That could make an interesting strategic choice. Would you go for NF´s that boost your military production and research or would you go for a better economy giving higher workforce (population) and thereby more factory buildings slots.

 

[Vidkjaer]

The one battalion suggestion is not free because you need to spend about 25 experience to create that division and look how much time it take to get that experience which can be put into much better use.

You could go around that by make a copy of your 3 brigade infantry divison free or charge and then remove all battalions but one. That would not cost you a single XP in the current system.

 

[Denkt]

It is not free to remove battalion in the current system.

 

[Vidkjaer]

It is not free to remove battalion in the current system.

I think i have read somewhere that it is, but it could of course have changed.
Is there a post confirming removal of battalions comes with a cost?