Production Licences are one of the greatest missed out opportunities of HOI4

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Husein

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I will add the ways to improve it and make the system better at the end. With that out of the way lets jump into the meat of the issues. When they were designed they were supposed to be a way for smaller countries, or members of the same alliance to focus on specific research without lagging too badly in military department. Think China for example, with limited research slots and not a lot of leeway to go galivanting about. Or, think Yugoslavia, Spain, Finland. Countries in an interesting position that may have greater concern than researching Tanks or Bombers.

However with the way they are implemented in the game there are several problems. The greatest of which is the tech difference malus to accepting licence production. I will use an example from my game.

I am China. It is May 1941 and I have just kicked Japan out of Asian mainland. I am recovering from the war, looking for ways to modernize my armed forces and with plenty of money to throw around (or IC in games terms). You'd think that countries would be throwing themselves at me in an effort to modernize my forces, both for the sake of money and gaining foothold in Asia trough friendly and indebted regime. The entire war I was stuck with 2 research slots and used them to keep my small arms up to date and advance Industrially. I now want to licence tanks, aircraft and submarines. Yet no one will so much as even consider it. Let's use America as an example.

I just seriously weakened their main rival in the pacific. I am offering good money for P-40 Warhawk, an outdated plane. They have a -35 malus on acceptance due to technological advantage. Trying to get the modern plane they also have, the P-39 nets me a -55 malus. I even go back to P-1 Hawk, maybe I liked King Kong and wanted to do a Chinese remake with said planes. Heck no, -20 for that. do note I have 95 relation with US. I am paying in good factories. I go over to Shipbuilding, looking at the outdated 1936 sub, -90 acceptance.

I think I made my point here. What pray tell is the purpose of licensing when you yourself need to research the damn thing in order to lose civilian factories and to produce it at lower efficiency when you can just build a domestic design? Minor countries or local powers should be able to licence weapons as long as the relationship between countries are positive. It's economy after all.

Second problem is the cost. And not just the cost but the permanence of it.

I want to licence from Germany the following items:

Basic Scout car, modern artillery and AT guns, Panzer IV and a Hummel as well as outdated JU87 and ME109 aircraft and Type VII Submarine. Total cost is 25 factories, for as long as I have licences. I'll also skip over the -90 malus for accepting because it's too advanced for me, apparently.

Supposing I get all of that I am now looking down at -35% production malus for daring to use foreign technology. It's permament, my people are incapable of figuring out how to produce the mysterious ME109 even if given 10 years to do so, even if thet produced 10 000 of them etc. I would understand a temporary malus as tooling machines are reconfigured, I'd understand a bigger efficiency drop if you have a domestic production set up and now want to produce a foreign design. But a permanent malus and a malus that persists even if you replace the ME109 with FW190 for example is insane.

I'd suggest the following changes:

Make AI willing to licence their products to anyone with a positive relationship. Make AI willing to licence their top tier designs after a year has passed since their invention. It's no longer a secret, there's no point holding out on it. Change the cost of licensing from permanent to temporary. I suggest for example 1 Civilian factory for 90 days and 25 political points per licensed design for simple weapon, 3 for tanks and armor, 5 for aircraft and 10 for ships. After 90 days the factory is back with you. The seller country gets the IC and PP. The benefit of this is that it allows smaller countries to do what they historically did, buy foreign designs for their forces. It also does not cripple smaller states to do so. Developing an aircraft program of your own should be more expensive than buying already made foreign ones. The downside is that you are not controlling the technological development of said equipment.

Remove the production malus. They should start with a lower production efficiency but said efficiency should not be forever gimped. Eventually the locals will figure it out and adapt. And when they do transitioning from making ME109 to FW190 is no harder for them than for the Germans themselves.


An extra, amazing, perfect bonus that is not required to fix the game feature that Paradox currently made impossible to use would be if your models would change on the map depending on what equipment you use. Licencing German tanks should give you German tank model for said design. Licencing German infantry equipment should make your infantry units look German. It was literally the case for China, Bulgaria and even Finland.
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KubiG37

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Damn you are right. I never really saw the bigger picture of how flawed and useless this whole system is, because of AIs.
I guess I just tried to do it, and always saw some 'absolutely not' AI answer enough times, that I stopped accepting these options exist at all.

Now let's talk about how 'relations' are completely irrelevant as well... Or trade relations and how they even deleted the Trade Embargo focuses, when reworking the US tree! How AI never wants to send you ANY lend-lease ever when asked politely, because -1000 *reasons*.
 
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Fr3ddi3

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I'd also like the AI to inquire about buying a PL off me if I have something superior than their own equipment / weapon, or at least the ability to offer a liscense to Allies to avoid potential spam.
 
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Husein

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I'd also like the AI to inquire about buying a PL off me if I have something superior than their own equipment / weapon, or at least the ability to offer a liscense to Allies to avoid potential spam.

Definitely that too. But that would require working on AI which paradox swore not to do so I skipped it. Would be awesome for sure.
 

ctl3

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I'd like to see a licence trading system so that player and AI can set some rules like:

"Allow all faction member to licence all models"
"Allow neutral nation to licence old tank models"

And add a panel to production menu to quickly check what license is available.
 
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Maria Theresa

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Another half-baked fluff mechanic added to DLC (Death and Dishonor in this case) to justify the high price that turns out to be completely useless and broken and never gets fixed or balanced? Color me surprised!
It is especially infuriating because it has potential to be actually a good and interesting mechanic.
 
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TheDeathIncarnate

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I think there should be a mechanic to let minors buy equipment directly from another countries stockpile without having to produce it. And pay for it by civilian factories just like trade (but for a time depending on the how big the purchase is).I think this simulates the reality even more accurately.
 

j.margenat

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Both Lend Lease and License Lease are half baked, however Lend Lease is useful in both SP and MP while License Lease is only for MP as even if faction the AI wont give you blueprints of anything. Of course this is because the AI do not see the profit in giving you x template even if they gain industry because of that.

Main problem is that there is no currency in HOI like the other titles have. If we were using $ i could see the the ai trading with resources, lend lease and licenses more often and using war bonds that create inflation to fund themselves. Lets say China needs steel, infantry equipment and GW tank license, so they would pay monthly for the trade agreement (vic 2 economic dinamics of offer and demand can do this) and for the lend lease whatever both countries stipulated, while the license could be payed deciding how much money you are gonna pay and in how many months you are gonna pay.

That said with how research is handled liceses are only needed for minors as majors have 4+ research slots.
 

Ffire

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An idea of trading mechanic (not licensing)could be :
You can buy stuff in the stockpile of any other nations at the cost of CIC. You pay the amount of IC needed to build it, let's say 2 or 3 times because you use CIC; that's the base price.
You get maluses based on the World tension you generated, and bonus with the overall world tension.
You get bonus if the equipment you buy is outdated.
You get malus/bonus if your relationship is bad/good. with a limit under that you cannot buy at all.
 

currylambchop

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It is because they don't have a good economic system that stuff like this can't be modelled well. People like to deny that economic system needs to be revamped, but production licences prove that this is necessary to model the intricacies of the war.

Especially given that all the old HOI games saw the necessity of having an actual economic and trade system with currency, etc. to actually simulate what is going on, with much more nuance than trading civilian factories. HOI4 has this absurd exponential growth in industry that throws factory cost balancing out of wack. This growth is unrealistic and really shouldn't be in the game, causing many of the game's problems. The inflexibility of CIC as a payment mechanism also makes the game clunky and overcomplicated. Whereas using gold to pay for it would be preferable, as currency is an idea that most people can understand.
 
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Golwar

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Good points. I generally wish Paradox would run some/more surveys covering how we appreciate/rate specific features.
 

Husein

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@podcat Sorry for tagging you if it's not permitted, no one told me if we can or can't do it acording to rules. Just wanted to point these problems out and see if they can or would be addressed in future updates?
 

Secret Master

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@podcat Sorry for tagging you if it's not permitted, no one told me if we can or can't do it acording to rules. Just wanted to point these problems out and see if they can or would be addressed in future updates?

You can tag a Dev. But they are under no obligation to respond. So, it's a crap shoot whether you will get a response.
 

Riekopo

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Yeah it's a good mechanic they added but it needs more work. Like the ships/ship combat from Man The Guns. In my opinion the AI should be programmed on Historical mode to license things that they did historically. Maybe it should be its own setting.
 

Dan1109

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Damn you are right. I never really saw the bigger picture of how flawed and useless this whole system is, because of AIs.
I guess I just tried to do it, and always saw some 'absolutely not' AI answer enough times, that I stopped accepting these options exist at all.

Now let's talk about how 'relations' are completely irrelevant as well... Or trade relations and how they even deleted the Trade Embargo focuses, when reworking the US tree! How AI never wants to send you ANY lend-lease ever when asked politely, because -1000 *reasons*.
Lend Lease is not FULLY flawed. The AI will refuse to LL you equipment if you have equipment already in your stockpile. You have to be in the red, having a negative amount. Then it will happily LL.

HOWEVER, the same logic applies to fuel, the USA, even at war, swimming in fuel, will not LL fuel unless you are OUT. And of course, you have to ask for it. And then, it will not give you a daily amount, but rather a large chunk of like 50k barrels.

The logic of only LLing if you are in dire need by being negative is horribly flawed with fuel, and somewhat flawed with normal equipment.
 
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Secret Master

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Yeah it's a good mechanic they added but it needs more work. Like the ships/ship combat from Man The Guns. In my opinion the AI should be programmed on Historical mode to license things that they did historically. Maybe it should be its own setting.

The mechanic is great. We use it in MP all the time. Especially now that you can't browse a country's tech by browsing licenses.

But the AI seems to be a bit silly about the whole thing.
 

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Lend Lease is not FULLY flawed. The AI will refuse to LL you equipment if you have equipment already in your stockpile. You have to be in the red, having a negative amount. Then it will happily LL.

HOWEVER, the same logic applies to fuel, the USA, even at war, swimming in fuel, will not LL fuel unless you are OUT. And of course, you have to ask for it. And then, it will not give you a daily amount, but rather a large chunk of like 50k barrels.

The logic of only LLing if you are in dire need by being negative is horribly flawed with fuel, and somewhat flawed with normal equipment.

The requirement to go into negatives precludes any planing and also prevents offloading of certain industries to lend lease allies. The AI will not lend lease if you are not in the red. When you reach green it will cancel. Which can put you in red again. And again. And again. What's so horrifying about being able to focus on aircraft and getting tanks or rifles lend leased from an ally in quantities sufficient to not just make up the shortfall but train more troops?
 
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