Production 3.0

[unmerged(48627)]

I always found that to a bit... Odd.

With the HoI method, you produce a ship and then when its ready, then you decide where it goes.

So if you're the US and if you need a ship on the Pacific then you just plop it over their but if you randomly change your mind you plop it on the Atlanta.

It seems minor, but to me it feels like we are using Star Trek transporters. Even unit placement of land units felt the same way. You could just immediately transport units without strategic deployment delay on the east front or west front with no account of how long it really took them to go there. Yeah, I know it has to be core provinces but when you are the USSR that is a pretty big distance.

I don`t think the deployment system is based on origin of production, as a naval vessel always uses a period of combat readying and seatrials before deployment. I think of it as if a BB is built in Kiel, it must still be combat readied and the the sailed to its designated naval station before it is deployed and available for its commander.

 

[Brasidas]

I don`t think the deployment system is based on origin of production, as a naval vessel always uses a period of combat readying and seatrials before deployment. I think of it as if a BB is built in Kiel, it must still be combat readied and the the sailed to its designated naval station before it is deployed and available for its commander.

If it's built in Kiel, it doesn't hurt the game to force you deploy it to Kiel, rather than Rostock or Bremen (with the canal, it doesn't matter which side of Jutland you go to, and there's a fairly narrow window of exposure going to or from Bremen).

If it's built in St. Petersburg, it hurts the game to allow you to deploy it to Sebastapol or Vladivostock. When Germany holds the Baltic straits and Turkey (historically) bars military shipping through the Bosphorous.

You should, at the very least, be forced to pick the sea that the ship will be deployed to.

 

[unmerged(48627)]

Brasidas: I think we should have some sort of production capability for specialized production, such as tanks, aircraft and ships. The production capability of ships should be based on number ports size of ports and doctrine, for tanks and aircraft it should be related to doctrine and tank reserach. This would further enhance the importance of doctrines and ports.

Heres and example:
Naval production cap equals number and size of ports:
Two 5* ports gives production cap of 10 IC, then add an X doctrine/ tech modifier.

Tanks: Based on doctrine and industrial tech level: XX% of total IC equals tank production cap.

Airplanes: same as tanks.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Heres and example:
Naval production cap equals number and size of ports:
Two 5* ports gives production cap of 10 IC, then add an X doctrine/ tech modifier.

Tanks: Based on doctrine and industrial tech level: XX% of total IC equals tank production cap.

Airplanes: same as tanks.

A port is not a shipward. An example, the French battleship Jean Bart was build in Saint Nazaire, but its naval base was Toulon or Brest. After there is the question of ship reparations, if you ship gets less than 50% of its strengh, it will have to be in send in a pool and won't be available before the end of reparations.

And for tanks and aircrafts production : tech level, doctrines and size or number of factories...may be you will have robots for producing tanks but the best way to increase the production, it's building new factory.

And something about tanks and aircrafts production, the possibilty to create a reserve of materials for rapid renfoircements.

 

[unmerged(48627)]

A port is not a shipward. An example, the French battleship Jean Bart was build in Saint Nazaire, but its naval base was Toulon or Brest. After there is the question of ship reparations, if you ship gets less than 50% of its strengh, it will have to be in send in a pool and won't be available before the end of reparations.

And for tanks and aircrafts production : tech level, doctrines and size or number of factories...may be you will have robots for producing tanks but the best way to increase the production, it's building new factory.

And something about tanks and aircrafts production, the possibilty to create a reserve of materials for rapid renfoircements.

I don`t think you understood the essence of my suggestion.
My point was that a factory is not able to produce aircraft one day, munitions the next and tanks the third day. Likewise, the entire IC output of a country can`t change entirely from tanks to aircraft either. to Thus a cap for some specialized production could reflect this. The cap would be based on infrastructure like existing IC, Ports (where the ships were refit and repaired in HOI2) and the emphasis each country has put on various parts of the armed services through its doctrines.(A country wich is focused towards Blitzkrieg would have more tank factories etc.)

 

[unmerged(94130)]

(A country wich is focused towards Blitzkrieg would have more tank factories etc.)

It's just an example, but in 1940 the third of Panzerwaffe was equipped with czech tanks...

So the German doctrines about tank employment was the most advanced but their tank industry was very powerfull...

 

[Ithron]

How about sticking to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II#GDP_-_Gross_domestic_product
at the very least, till the start of the war, those numbers are perfect. Other countries can also be found on internet..

 

[unmerged(94026)]

I don`t think you understood the essence of my suggestion.
My point was that a factory is not able to produce aircraft one day, munitions the next and tanks the third day. Likewise, the entire IC output of a country can`t change entirely from tanks to aircraft either. to Thus a cap for some specialized production could reflect this. The cap would be based on infrastructure like existing IC, Ports (where the ships were refit and repaired in HOI2) and the emphasis each country has put on various parts of the armed services through its doctrines.(A country wich is focused towards Blitzkrieg would have more tank factories etc.)

I would like to abandon the IC system, or at least have different kind of IC for ships, planes, heavy equipment and small arms.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I would like to abandon the IC system, or at least have different kind of IC for ships, planes, heavy equipment and small arms.

I hear alot of people wanting this, But The arguments against it are many.

A standard machine workshop can retool pretty quickly, and they can make any metal part below 50kg's that is used in planes, tanks, ships, artillery or small arms.

Look at it this way. Most of the work can be done by normal IC, the only thing requiring special factorys is the final assembly. And in a pre assembly line situation like most of WW2 was this was more flexible than most think.

I do argee that an advanced assembly line shouldn't be broken without penalty. But instead of complicated "special IC" I would like to see even larger bonuses for gearing on long lines, and more improvements to be had for those from production technology. The % gearing increase per unit could be based on days in production instead of a flat 5%.

I wouldn't have a problem with seeing allied Sherman assembly lines reaching 200-300% efficiency compared to axis machineshop crafted counterparts without gearing.

I do also agree with all the concerns of limiting ship production to number of shipyards, But I do belive it would be easier to acomplish this like my original suggestion, or having ships physically built in ports with IC.

Certain industrial traditions could also be reflected by having Industry "techteams". Or by having EU3 style sliders that prioritize between different things and give bonuses to these industrial traditions. A few such sliders could be: quality vs quantity, airborne bombs vs land artillery or ocean vs coastal navy.

 

[unmerged(48627)]

Could port size translate directly into IC available for shipbuilding only?
Now in HOI2, I guess the shipyard IC`s are abstracted and put into the general IC pool of coastal provinces.
A simple solution wich doesn`t require much micromanagement...

 

[unmerged(94130)]

I do argee that an advanced assembly line shouldn't be broken without penalty. But instead of complicated "special IC" I would like to see even larger bonuses for gearing on long lines, and more improvements to be had for those from production technology. The % gearing increase per unit could be based on days in production instead of a flat 5%.

Assembly lines is the most historic solution.
But if we have to choose what will produce each factory, it means more micro managment.
And there is not only vehicles assembly lines. A tank, it's a engine, a cannon, a lot of accessories...

So, perhaps a mix between a Vicky system where you produce differents elements and after you choose an assembly line where these elements will be assembled for creating a plane, a tank, a gun...

 

[nwinther]

A port is not a shipward.

No, but very large ports usually have a dockyard for repairs if not for building.

The dockyard however, could be a special structure along AA, port, Rocket Test Site etc. and every dockyard could then increase your shipbuilding capability.

 

[vertinox]

A standard machine workshop can retool pretty quickly, and they can make any metal part below 50kg's that is used in planes, tanks, ships, artillery or small arms.

This is highly untrue at least when it comes to German tank production.

One of the bigest hurdles in upgrading from the PzIII/IV tanks to the Tiger and Panther was that the turrets and hulls were all cast in a single die (a single peice created in one go). Which at the time was a feat in itself due to the size of the vehicles.

The reason for this is that multi-piece hulls and turrets that were welded or bolted together tended to fail magnificently under AT fire and often killed the crew with shrapnel that came off the tank itself and not the AT round. (bolted turrets were notorious for this)

That said, Germany continued PzIV hull production until the end of the war simply because it wasn't cost efficient to switch all factories to tigers and panthers.

Engines are another story... The same shop creating aircraft engines wouldn't really be tooled to creating Tiger engines.

The Soviets had a similar setup and actually were the first to create single cast pieces for the T34 so they didn't have to switch mid-war other than the turrets. Still, it wasn't easy as flipping a switch and a few parts to get the larger turrets for the T-34 85mm.

[edit]

If I'm not mistaken, late war PzIV hulls were single casted as well as the turrets towards but with extra armor bolted on the outside. It was the early turrets that were first made with welds and bolts.

 

[Alex_brunius]

This is highly untrue at least when it comes to German tank production.

One of the bigest hurdles in upgrading from the PzIII/IV tanks to the Tiger and Panther was that the turrets and hulls were all cast in a single die (a single peice created in one go). Which at the time was a feat in itself due to the size of the vehicles.

What part of "below 50kg's" did you miss?

But I will continue your argument. If the "tankturret casting factory" heavy machinery get new molds for destroyer turrets? What is stopping them from retooling aswell? New molds might take a little bit longer, perhaps a few weeks to get ready since its very heavy machinery. But in reality nothing is stopping the industry from retooling into new production lines.

Thats why I think Specific IC is the wrong way to go.

 

[Featauril]

Perhaps some mixed system?

Everytime you start a production, you could assign it to a certain industry, but the price and the limits and everything would still be in ICs?

It would just make it so you can't have your entire production be just tanks, or just infantry, but a bit of everything.

It also brings some diminishing returns : After your gillioneth tank line, your industries that are left for building new things are much worse then your good ones, and so your tanks are being churned out at a lower rate.

Kind of like you won't research 5 ships or 5 planes at once in HOI2, because your amount of good teams are limited.

 

[DesertSnow]

Personally, i don't think that industrial production should take the "tech team" form.

Perhaps maximum ship production could be tied to maximum port capacity, but that's it. I don't think having different types of factories and "naval research heartquarters" in certain provinces would offer anything in terms of gameplay. You already have the "missile" and "nuclear reactors" placed in certain provinces, and i think that is enough. The AI really targets the "nuclear-reactor" provinces and that is fine by me ( i can't forget my last ahistorical game as Germany when Poland DOWED me while my troops were deployed on France, and managed to capture Oppeln where my reactors where placed- so i had to say "bye bye" to nuclear research- losing control of a province destroys all reactors present in that province, so unlike forts/infastructure/indusries/AA guns you cannot repair the reactors)

Historically, i only know one historical example where a bombing run/ sabotage operation really hampered all research in a field, and that's the "heavy water" plant in Norway, which had to do with nuclear research.

Up until the end of the war, the german industry kept deploying improved types of aircraft (the "rocket interceptors"), even though strategic bombing had turned german cities into ruins.

I really want to hear more from people who played Victoria, because i know that in that game you had different industries for different military equipment. Did the AI understand when to build this or that type of factory?

Most of us play hearts of iron in single player mode, so making the game ("much") more complicated than the AI can handle is a wrong design decision, at least for me.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Up until the end of the war, the german industry kept deploying improved types of aircraft (the "rocket interceptors"), even though strategic bombing had turned german cities into ruins.

I really want to hear more from people who played Victoria, because i know that in that game you had different industries for different military equipment. Did the AI understand when to build this or that type of factory?

Another example is the Ju-488.
Its development was stopped after the capture of the prototypes elements in Toulouse by local resistants.
After a German heavy bomber in the mid-44, it's not the best way to spent ressources but it's another history...

HoI has to keep tis simplicity but the IC system is not realist...an aircraft plant is not able to produce tank...
Specialized IC is a best solution but an IC stays an abstract concept...