Production 3.0

[unmerged(94130)]

- A little more micromanagement, But I know I love this kind of management, will feel historical to get to choose contractors for your orders.

A Vicky production system ?
One factory produce rifles, another general supplies, another rifles ammunitions and when you have what you need for creating a new division, you can start training of this division ?
Complex, but more realist than IC system
But the number of products will have to be limited...

- Offers from different industries or contractors. Democracys could have to pay $ fees to start production (more for better industries) and dictatorships could pay extra IC fees.

But Germany has kept his private weapon compagnies, so Germany had to pay for starting the production of a new aircraft or tank...

- No model upgrades for tanks/aircraft but instead more stats upgrade via techs. Perhaps brigaded extras such as radio/sonar/radar/AA/AT or small stuff that can be upgraded often and easilly without replacing the entire unit. Old divisions can be either put on No reinfocement allowed (Soviet style) or used as rearguards then disbanded (Allied/Germany style).

But you can keep the same model of tanks or aircraft during several years, sometimes you have to replace them. And the unit is not available during the chage of its main combat material...

How can I have the same efficiency of resource gathering and production regardless of infrastructure in HoI2?

May be a separation between factories and ressources. You can build new factories and improving your mines and oil wells.

 

[Rummy]

I like the idea, though I dont like the possibility of say paratroopers being dropped into one of my production/research territories and being able to destroy/set back any or all progress.

To defend against this I would need an entire division just sitting in each province, realistically this is not feasible, and historically there were always masses of troops on the home front to defend against commando missions.

Eg, the german player should not need several divisions just sitting in their home provinces in the Ruhr area. In multiplayer it would be so easy for an Allied player to exploit this by dropping one or two paratroopers and quickly moving them to neighbouring territories before the Germans can deploy a few divisions there in force. The Allies might lose a division or two but it would be nothing compared to the damage inflicted by being able to take out so many factories and their production runs or set back vital research for another 6 months or year. If it was realistic, it would have been done historically, though for obvious reasons it was not.

The only solution I can think of to get around this is that even though you may take a province that contains factories or research centres with Allied Paratroopers, that these items will continue to function as normally for the Axis, until the Allied player enters the province with any non-paratrooper division (or its only halted and then resumed once retaken by the axis).

Another area of concern though is shipyards. With the addition of so many more provinces and coast line now, it will be so easy to continously raid the enemys coast by dropping off a single division in any of their undefened provinces that contains a shipyard. Normally this wouldnt be a problem as you can set your own naval forces on patrol in a specific region, though given that it takes 2+ years to build a battleship thats more than enough time for plenty of opportunities to arise for your oppenent to spot an opening and within the space of one day invade with a single division to cancel an entire years progress at the shipyard.

 

[unmerged(52476)]

How can you make production more fun, feel even more historical and suffer from strategic bombing?

My suggestion is...

Great ideas!

To defend against this I would need an entire division just sitting in each province, realistically this is not feasible

Yes, although there are also no real commando units. Only ~10,000 men airborne divisions. Having a few divisions guarding rear areas will be sufficient to destroy an airborne division after a drop deep in enemy territory. And loosing an entire division each time you damage industries does hurt.

Also, in the new system, paradropping an airborne division on a province not connected to the front must not automatically mean that you conquered the whole province. maybe something like an intermediate occupied state until the unit is moved out or the province gets connected to the front.

Another area of concern though is shipyards. With the addition of so many more provinces and coast line now, it will be so easy to continously raid the enemys coast by dropping off a single division in any of their undefened provinces that contains a shipyard.

Only a few of these provinces will actually contain shipyards. Thus, defending them will not be a problem. Landing divisions as raiding parties at an undefended coastal province... see above. A few guard divisions (which should be there near the shipyards anyways) can handle this, and loosing those raiding parties does hurt, IC and manpower wise. So I can't see how they are an exploit.

In my opinion, shipyards (i.e. restricting naval production to a certain amount of IC and to certain locations) is one of the most important changes which should be made to production in HoI3.

 

[nwinther]

Also, in the new system, paradropping an airborne division on a province not connected to the front must not automatically mean that you conquered the whole province. maybe something like an intermediate occupied state until the unit is moved out or the province gets connected to the front.

I've often thought about this problem. You arrive with one battered division in Moscow and immediately an entire army decends upon you from neighbouring provinces. You get thrown out but not before you took a pile of resources and paralyzed all factories and resource-plants.

My "solution" has been a type of clock. When you arrive in an enemy province with one division, a clock starts. When it runs out, You've gained complete control with all stationary objects in the province, thus allowing for the partican-factor. You haven't destroyed anything and you haven's set up your own production-line, which will happen like in HOI2, where factories, mines etc. daily gain strength.

If you arrive with two divisions, the clock go faster, and faster still of you arrive with three (not a linear acceleration).

Now IF you come under attack, the clock stops for the duration of the battle.

IF you loose the battle and must evacuate, the clock stops until a division (yours or the enemy) reenters it. If the enemy makes it to the province and holds it, the clock moves backwards.

If you prematurely leave a province, f.x. to advance on the next province or to retire to a better defencive line, then the clock begins moving slowly backwards. When it reaches 0 the province, provided it's bordering an enemy-held province that's 100% enemy, the province will become theirs without enrtering it. If the province is completely bordered by other occupied provinces it goes partisan when it reaches 0. The speed of reversing the occupied though not manned province could depend on the number of enemy provinces immediately bordering it.

Core provinces will not need to be "timed".

If a Paratrooper lands in a province deep behind enemy lines, in this "scenario", they won't be able to paralyze construction in a flash. You can bring a number of militia divisions to bear or whatever.

And that's another thing. I'd like to be able to produce at least two types of militia. One being the minute-men type the other being the "trained militia" - dad's army (I think that was the name of the british Home Guard).

The latter being a trained formation that can operate alongside regular forces in a meaningful way. The former is a gathering of men (and women) bearing arms they happened to have themselves, that can gather in a matter of hours or days at most. The former can only be deployed in core provinces and is dependent on manpower in a province and can only move 1 province away from their Point of Origin. After all, history shows many examples of civilians raising arms and go fighting an armed enemy (being a foreign or domestic enemy). If a paratrooper division landed in, say Berlin, in 1940, I should think, were Berlin devoid of regulars, that the population wouldn't consider themselves occupied.

Of course the minute-man militia could be represented by sheer manpower in a province. Is it 5+ it can occupy an enemy division (nomatter the type), 10+ it can occupy 2 enemy divisions. 3 enemy divisions and you need regular forces do deal with them. By "occupying" I don't mean that they actually defeat the division, but the hinder them from dismantling factories etc. To destroy them you need regular forces.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The first suggestion was only a rough Idea. More realistic about it would perhaps be if raiding divisions can destroy 1-5% progress per day, so it won't be worth wasting expensive elite divisions (paras and marines) on suicide missions.

The general Idea and consensus should be that single division sized raids are not worth it. (enemy airforce and local units can destroy them to fast). One way to make this happen is to prevent landing units from retreating back out to sea and requiring them to embark for 12-24 hour or so first. Or allow retreats to seazones but make casualtys huge (50% strenght or so to all retreating divisions).

 

[unmerged(52476)]

I've often thought about this problem. You arrive with one battered division in Moscow and immediately an entire army decends upon you from neighbouring provinces. You get thrown out but not before you took a pile of resources and paralyzed all factories and resource-plants.

My "solution" has been a type of clock. When you arrive in an enemy province with one division, a clock starts. When it runs out, You've gained complete control with all stationary objects in the province, thus allowing for the partican-factor. You haven't destroyed anything and you haven's set up your own production-line, which will happen like in HOI2, where factories, mines etc. daily gain strength.

I really do like the clock idea! However, I think that combat in a province should do damage to infrastructure and province improvements. Such things just get damaged during fighting. The longer the fight, and the more divisions are fighting, the larger should be the damage.

And that's another thing. I'd like to be able to produce at least two types of militia. One being the minute-men type the other being the "trained militia" - dad's army (I think that was the name of the british Home Guard).

I do hope they solve this problem with the mobilization function. I don't know how this function is implemented in other games, but for HoI3 I hope they have different "levels" of mobilization. The highest level being mobilization of "normal" troops with good training and equipment, down to the last reserves, old and discharged men given some bazooka and sent to the front. I guess that's basically what you want, too.

Of course the minute-man militia could be represented by sheer manpower in a province. Is it 5+ it can occupy an enemy division (nomatter the type), 10+ it can occupy 2 enemy divisions. 3 enemy divisions and you need regular forces do deal with them. By "occupying" I don't mean that they actually defeat the division, but the hinder them from dismantling factories etc. To destroy them you need regular forces.

I would prefer to see militia as unit on the map. Although what I like from your idea is the resistance dependent on province manpower. What about making partisan strength depending on the manpower in a province? That would make sense to me.

 

[unmerged(52476)]

The first suggestion was only a rough Idea. More realistic about it would perhaps be if raiding divisions can destroy 1-5% progress per day, so it won't be worth wasting expensive elite divisions (paras and marines) on suicide missions.

The general Idea and consensus should be that single division sized raids are not worth it. (enemy airforce and local units can destroy them to fast). One way to make this happen is to prevent landing units from retreating back out to sea and requiring them to embark for 12-24 hour or so first. Or allow retreats to seazones but make casualtys huge (50% strenght or so to all retreating divisions).

Another idea:

What if a commando raid would be performed as a espionage mission?

The smallest unit size represented in the game will be a division, and I think we can agree that this size is inappropriate to model commandos. On the other hand, there are already espionage functions in HoI2 which lets you interrupt production and research. Sure the espionage system in HoI2 is pretty daft (and, IMO, needs an major overhaul with a complete new mechanism), but you could build on this.

You could set naval industry (or single shipyards, depending on the amount of micromanagement you want) as an espionage target, and depending on funding and espionage modifiers you get more or less regularly sabotage results.

 

[nwinther]

I really do like the clock idea! However, I think that combat in a province should do damage to infrastructure and province improvements. Such things just get damaged during fighting. The longer the fight, and the more divisions are fighting, the larger should be the damage.

No dealbreaker for me. There are lots of tweaks that would have to be debated.

I do hope they solve this problem with the mobilization function. I don't know how this function is implemented in other games, but for HoI3 I hope they have different "levels" of mobilization. The highest level being mobilization of "normal" troops with good training and equipment, down to the last reserves, old and discharged men given some bazooka and sent to the front. I guess that's basically what you want, too.

Basically, yes. But I don't want the last ditch defenders (the old guy with the bazooka) to be very enthuastic i.e. they would give up pretty quickly and retreat or dissolve. I'm thinking of the british where a small group of germans are landed and the local population takes action.

I would prefer to see militia as unit on the map. Although what I like from your idea is the resistance dependent on province manpower. What about making partisan strength depending on the manpower in a province? That would make sense to me.

Again, not a dealbreaker. If you make the minuteman-version, I suggest a production-time of a few days. But this may clutter up the system, as I don't like seeing army-groups of old men with shotguns or duelling-pistols. Rather small temporary (ad hoc) units that aren't very mobile (they're home for dinner).

 

[Delta107]

I like in HOI2 production system its abstract concept, so instead of micromanaging you focus on strategic problems. Yet, I think there should be some interesting tactical options also concerning units, like the ability to "upgrade" or "downgrade" a division (e.g. Upgrading an infantry division into a airborn one , or vice-versa .

 

[Alex_brunius]

Another idea:

What if a commando raid would be performed as a espionage mission?

The smallest unit size represented in the game will be a division, and I think we can agree that this size is inappropriate to model commandos. On the other hand, there are already espionage functions in HoI2 which lets you interrupt production and research. Sure the espionage system in HoI2 is pretty daft (and, IMO, needs an major overhaul with a complete new mechanism), but you could build on this.

Indeed. I also think espionage would be the best way to represent such commando raids. To raid specific airfields or harbours in neighboring provinces would be pretty cool.
I agree with everything you write here but this thread is more about production than espionage so perhaps someone should make a new thread with suggestions for that espionage overhaul we need

 

[unmerged(15365)]

Yeah if they want any sense of realism they need to add in separate types of production. I really hate the generic IC and single production que. There need to be shipyards, tank, aircraft, and small arms factories. Each draw resources separately directed by sliders. Would solve so many realism problems to just have a little bit of Vicky style management.

Take a look at this. There is only IC, energy metal, rare materials, oil, supplies and money. Also some room left to TC, dissent and nukes. You guys are just wasting your time, trying to convince Paradox to make something more advanced than that. Perhaps you have to wait till HOI IV to see any realization of your ideas

 

[vertinox]

Well come to think of it... If they use the EU3 method of building ships, it will be done by port.

Really that wasn't too hard to keep up ship production and I'd hope they do the same with HoI3.

 

[unmerged(15365)]

Well come to think of it... If they use the EU3 method of building ships, it will be done by port.

Really that wasn't too hard to keep up ship production and I'd hope they do the same with HoI3.

No, they are not going to use the EU 3 method of building ships. They are going to keep the old HOI 2 one for that purpose. In other words it is not going to be anyhow associated with sea ports :rofl:

 

[Alex_brunius]

Mars:
Just because screenshots show one thing does in no way mean its what we will end up with. Have you seen the first released HoI2 development alfa screenshots? Not much resemblance with HoI2 like it looks or works today.

vertinox:
We can hope for a system requireing a province with navalbases and ICs to start ship production, that would be another way to do it.

 

[vertinox]

No, they are not going to use the EU 3 method of building ships. They are going to keep the old HOI 2 one for that purpose. In other words it is not going to be anyhow associated with sea ports :rofl:

I always found that to a bit... Odd.

With the HoI method, you produce a ship and then when its ready, then you decide where it goes.

So if you're the US and if you need a ship on the Pacific then you just plop it over their but if you randomly change your mind you plop it on the Atlanta.

It seems minor, but to me it feels like we are using Star Trek transporters. Even unit placement of land units felt the same way. You could just immediately transport units without strategic deployment delay on the east front or west front with no account of how long it really took them to go there. Yeah, I know it has to be core provinces but when you are the USSR that is a pretty big distance.

 

[unmerged(15365)]

Mars:
Just because screenshots show one thing does in no way mean its what we will end up with. Have you seen the first released HoI2 development alfa screenshots? Not much resemblance with HoI2 like it looks or works today.

I wish they had taken into account all what you posted here. But I have to disappoint you. All your ideas and suggestions are in vain. You are going to see that yourself in a year upon release of HOI 3. You will see the same old and dull IC-based economy. This discussion is just a waste of time.

 

[unmerged(15365)]

This guy is damn right.

Waisting your breath paradox is a business, and such business calls for selling as much of product as possible. As long as product sells and sells good, nobody cares if its a good product or in your case more sophisticated and complex.
Like latest game, so called "Rome" was not a prime example of this. (Unless it was made as a charity for retarded kids, its a pinacle of simplicity and has a strategical depth of tic tac toe)

And for all your posturing people will buy new game, and I will buy it like I bought Rome and hope for the best.

If pdx redeems itself after that crap of a game, I would be greatful, if not - I hope game will be at least as good as HoI2 original. SO far in my opinion best paradox game ever.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I wish they had taken into account all what you posted here. But I have to disappoint you. All your ideas and suggestions are in vain. You are going to see that yourself in a year upon release of HOI 3. You will see the same old and dull IC-based economy. This discussion is just a waste of time.

Nope I think the discussion is fun, even if I know paradox will most likely not use or even read my suggestions It feels good to activate myself and productive to write something and share my thoughts.

On the other hand spamming your stance that HoI2 will be a dull copy with nothing new is only counterproductive, and also totally made up. I can't tell you much about how the production or resource systems will be in HoI3 but I can promise you that it won't end up a 100% copy of HoI2.

If they don't want/can/have time to use the suggestions we post here for HoI3 they are welcome to use them for HoI4 or HoI5 or any other game, while it would be sweet most of us are realists and don't expect it to happen, or even dare hoping for it to happen.

A big part of what makes HoI2 a great game for me is the active community constantly discussing suggestions, improvements through mods and sequels.

If You have nothing productive to add to the discussion then please go somewhere else and leave us be.

 

[vertinox]

I wish they had taken into account all what you posted here. But I have to disappoint you. All your ideas and suggestions are in vain. You are going to see that yourself in a year upon release of HOI 3. You will see the same old and dull IC-based economy. This discussion is just a waste of time.

Not to side track this thread, but Johan seems to listen to a lot of suggestions on CK. Maybe cause that's his pet game but he's really come through with DV and the subsequent beta patches.

And considering CK fanbase size, I'm pretty sure he's not doing it for the money

 

[unmerged(94130)]

I wish they had taken into account all what you posted here. But I have to disappoint you. All your ideas and suggestions are in vain. You are going to see that yourself in a year upon release of HOI 3. You will see the same old and dull IC-based economy. This discussion is just a waste of time.

It's a first screenshoot...

Ok, we see IC on the map screen...

But we don't see the production...may be there will be a lot of ressources, a lot of factories, a lot of products...

Wait the diary about production, and we will see
And we haven't what we want, we will be on strike

Something about factories building :
If the free market/planned economy is kept, which is not sure, the cost of one factories would change. In a planned economy system, you use IC for the factory, and in a free market system, you will spend money because it's a private compagny which will build the factory.