Production 3.0

[Alex_brunius]

Weaknesses in HoI2 production system:
- No ability to target specific production with bombing.
- Too flexible (Germany start building 15 parallel BB the day Soviet surrenders)
- Too boring (All production runs take same time, no strategic choises)
- "same" IC cost to replace a lost machine compared to a lost soldier.
- Completed units can be placed freely where needed.

How can you make production more fun, feel even more historical and suffer from strategic bombing?

My suggestion is Industries, the dynamic is similair to techteams. Make production work just like research!

You select a specific Industry(Krupp, Boeing, Vickers exc) and match each production batch with their speciallity, in some cases (shipbuilding) you are even forced to use a Industry that have shipyard acess(speciality). Each Industry and Techteam also have their HQ located in a province. By bombing here you will slow down progress off all builds and research in the province! Capturing it will destroy the current build or resarch. Just like in the real war, you will be forced to defend vital industrial areas at all cost. Production would be similair to research but use IC(and perhaps materials) instead of $ and you can run as many teams(Industries) as your IC can afford.

Pros:

- You must be smart about where you build or research. Perhaps chosing a normally worse site further from front will finish faster because it can work undisturbed from bombs?

- What happens on the strategic map have more direct impact on your production.

- Historical limits. Greatest problems for Germany in the ocean war was perhaps not its doctrine but its lack of shipping industries. Same about chinese aero industry or japanese tank industry.

- A ship built at New Yorks shipyards will appear there, and not magically at San diego. Resistance in the Ruhr area will be massive, one reason beeing most of the new tanks roll out here.

- Better historical feel, No more 20 Infantry divisions appearing simultaneously but rather reaching completion one by one as different Industries take different time to finish orders.

Cons:

- A little more micromanagement, But I know I love this kind of management, will feel historical to get to choose contractors for your orders.

- Abuse tactics such as paradropping vital industry areas or landing in shipyards to destroy progress. Guess we have to actually defend them now, huh?


Other cool stuff that could be added:

- Additional costs for some specific units, Steel for Ships or rare materials for Airplanes comes into mind as the most striking and realistic ones.

- Offers from different industries or contractors. Democracys could have to pay $ fees to start production (more for better industries) and dictatorships could pay extra IC fees.

- Events about improving industries (triggered by building IC in their province) pay materials to add/improve their speciallitys or give them more production slots. Adding IC in a province with no Industries could trigger events about getting new ones. Expanding ports or airfields could make your naval or aero industries ask for more funding (to be improved).

- Additional choises. Extra training (longer production time add oil/supplies cost) versus no training (faster time). Use high grade parts (more materials cost for better stats) versus Use substandard parts (less materials cost for worse stats).

- No model upgrades for tanks/aircraft but instead more stats upgrade via techs. Perhaps brigaded extras such as radio/sonar/radar/AA/AT or small stuff that can be upgraded often and easilly without replacing the entire unit. Old divisions can be either put on No reinfocement allowed (Soviet style) or used as rearguards then disbanded (Allied/Germany style).

- Separated manpower and materials in both production and casualties. Many other good suggestions about this, but the basic Idea is to first build only tanks(materials) and then either put them in division or use them to replace losses. When your attacked with stukas you lose tanks (expensive IC to replace) and when your attacked with militias you lose soldiers (expensive MP to replace).

- More effect of good Infrastructure and more well though out system. How can a province be repaired from 0 to 10 in a month but it will take 10years(120times as long) to build infrastructure from scratch in HoI2?
How can I have the same efficiency of resource gathering and production regardless of infrastructure in HoI2? I however must say I loved what Strategic infrastructure bombing could do to a land campaign. Make sure we get this in HoI3 aswell!

Edit: So Ive read tech teams are out. I still think production and research share alot and could use a similair mechanic. Perhaps not with specialitys, but the historical flavour of assigning certain famous teams for your research (and production) projects is really lovely.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

Yeah if they want any sense of realism they need to add in separate types of production. I really hate the generic IC and single production que. There need to be shipyards, tank, aircraft, and small arms factories. Each draw resources separately directed by sliders. Would solve so many realism problems to just have a little bit of Vicky style management.

Imo making a unit should begin by organizing available manpower into a very basic infrantry division for a low cost. From there you train and equip them.

 

[ROMANU]

2 wards: Great idea!

 

[unmerged(50037)]

Great ideas

I too think it should be more like for example EU3 where the divisions aren't just built and then placed somewhere, but rather are constructed from seperate provinces.

 

[doktordave]

World in Flames system

Didn't World in Flames, the wargame, have a system dealing with the scaling up of production ? Like, you start 1 inf. Once it is built, you can either cancel, add 1 more or stay at the same level. Supposing you want more, you then are able to start producting 1+1 (2) inf. Rinse and repeat until you reach what you want.

I think it worked quite well to model the retooling of machines and such to gradually increase the production of a specific type of unit, while allowing the IC concept to stay quite abstract as befits a strategic game.

 

[MAC]

War in the Pacific has a very detailed Production system. It is just incredible Micromanagement, but maybe some stuff could be automated. I am all for Ship builds linked to a wharf - this would indeed add realism.

 

[Joppos]

Beautiful concept you've got there. This is exactly the path i envision a HoI sequel would take.

I'm under the opinion that a sequel to a game in the HoI-series needs fundamentally new approaches to many of it's precursors attributes. This becuase of these games themselves being conceptually the same each sequel. There is no new story, no new setting or protagonist- It's just the same ol' 'WWII in a grand strategy scope'-game.

This said, something that bothers me is that many people on this forum seems reluctant to any form of increased complexity of the game. Many interesting ideas just gets branded "more micromanagement" as if it was some kind of blasphemy. This even if the idea, with this threads particular idea in mind, is just as simple as StarCraft-style gameplay.

 

[Evie HJ]

StarCraft is also on a completely different scale as Hearts of Iron - smaller map in effect (particularly with HOI III's 10 000 provinces), fewer units (well, unless you play a minor) and so forth.

As far as micro-management goes, some micro-management is good. Too much of it (see: Victoria) makes for a game that will only appeal to a very small niche. This isn't to say nobody will like it; just that not enough people might like it. And the people who like it would be already likely to buy the game, because it's already one of the more micro-management heavy WW2 games out there.

Now to be fair, I actually *like* this specific idea - ordering unit and stuff from specific industries sounds like the sort of balancing act that would be fun, and add depth and a feel of history to the game more than it adds micromanagement.

By comparison, the idea of having five separate type of factories, each with its own type of IC, that has been put forward in some other thread - that doesn't add much to the game, even on realism, and add a lot of extra steps to playing the game ("Ok, now I have to use some of my industrial IC to build a shipyard so that next year I have a little naval IC that I can use to build a ship...")

 

[unmerged(8021)]

Great idea, Alex.

 

[Deus Eversor]

StarCraft is also on a completely different scale as Hearts of Iron - smaller map in effect (particularly with HOI III's 10 000 provinces), fewer units (well, unless you play a minor) and so forth.

yes and zerg rush me so you get all my base and can't really repair my tanks because you rushed my csv ;p i like how it is with repairs
with above i agree only on that that industry is to flexible
for example if you had your industry producing smthing even if release was tomorow you cancel it and it is lost same with tech
besides you know the production line tech? it only shortens time fo building anything when it should decrease time only for those things that come next
ie 2 ic being build in province 1 ic is at 100% time next one 66% time
it should be like this because when first comes to and end second is already in production that is how production line works

such thing shuld at least remain until disposed tech on other hand should remain where we left it
and i agree that ie tanks should roll out where they were build but do not agree that repearing should go binary because
1 tank div = 1 infantry div does not mean 1 tank = 1 soldier
besides inf divs repair faster

 

[Alex_brunius]

Thanks for all comments, Im happy you like the suggestion.

By comparison, the idea of having five separate type of factories, each with its own type of IC, that has been put forward in some other thread - that doesn't add much to the game, even on realism, and add a lot of extra steps to playing the game ("Ok, now I have to use some of my industrial IC to build a shipyard so that next year I have a little naval IC that I can use to build a ship...")

Excactly my point.
This is actually one of the primary reasons I wrote this suggestion, No matter how I thought about it most if not all other ways to improve production seemed to be alot less friendly to beginners and added much more complexity. Selecting an extra portait each time you start building something is neither hard nor time consuming, and at the same time it can add both flavour, historical depth and new strategic choises. Similair mechanics ensures once you know research you also understand how production works.

We won't have to worry about HoI3 getting Victoria micromanagement. They still are missing 30 or so different kinds of resources to get the same complexity and Ive seen no new ones in Screenshots so far.

Didn't World in Flames, the wargame, have a system dealing with the scaling up of production ? Like, you start 1 inf. Once it is built, you can either cancel, add 1 more or stay at the same level. Supposing you want more, you then are able to start producting 1+1 (2) inf. Rinse and repeat until you reach what you want.

This is actually an interresting concept that I hope HoI3 expands upon aswell, when you set up a production line you shouldn't have to plan ahead and know exactlly how many units you want, unless your building something huge like a capital ship. Now that I think of it a +/- button to just increase / decrease serial lenght afterwards is probably the best way to handle it. But im sure there are loads of other interresting ways aswell.

 

[Joppos]

Of course i was only talking about the production aspect of the two games since i'm very well aware of the two games fundamentally different design.

Currently in HoI, you have one abstract place to build every unit, where you when the unit is done can place said unit anywhere on the map as long as there is a land connection to the capital. In comparison, StarCraft has specific buildings that produces specific units, which turns up in a specific area.

I'm aware of that HoI-games shouldn't have single factories/army bases spewing out whole divisional organizations, but rather in a less abstract and magical way have the divisions tied to a province under the pretense that this is their training and reorganization point. Naval production on the other hand needs to function in much the same way as "StarCraft"-production.

 

[nwinther]

I'm not sure I like the ideas too much. Personally I'm not interested in playing a game where I have to sit and build vulcanizing shops to vulcanize the tires on the trucks that transport the camshafts from production plant A to B, after building the paint-factories that make the paint for the trucks etc.

I see HOI as something like I'm Chief of Staff or something. I order a certain number of tanks of the latest model, I don't care much about signing deals with nickel-mine owners etc in order to reach that goal.

However, I like the idea of "setting up" your countrys industry. What do you want to focus on or how do you want to distribute your capabilities. Rather than bouncing from battleships to tanks to rockets, a setup could be required. You start out with a certain setup (20% navy, 50% army, 30% airforce) and if you want to change those ratios, you can do so with a time penalty. Resetting your army production to naval requires, say 18 months, where the percentage slowly rises and falls respectively.

If you annex a country (like in anchluss) your percentages change, as that countrys industry setup is affected. You could also link naval production to the points of large harbors (1-10) which represents your max. naval capability. If a large harbor is taken by the enemy, the points represented by the harbor disappears, as does the ships in dock (perhaps suspending them with a dropping "finished-percentage", rather than remove them entirely, as the enemy wouldn't be able to completely destroy a number of keels if the harbor was retaken the next day).

The same could go with airports (representing plane building facilities, however unhistorical) and the regular IC in provinces representing the army. So every point could represent a slot (bit like research) and you can choose to build either an infantry division or a tank division in one slot, with the difference being time and types of resources needed. Each slot is linked to a province and if that province falls, then the units are deleted (as are the slots) or suspended. (Again, 50 tank chassis don't disappear in a day if the factory is retaken).

My point is, that I don't want to trade realism for simplicity 1:1.

 

[mbabbs]

You select a specific Industry(Krupp, Boeing, Vickers exc) and match each production batch with their speciallity, in some cases (shipbuilding) you are even forced to use a Industry that have shipyard acess(speciality). Each Industry and Techteam also have their HQ located in a province. By bombing here you will slow down progress off all builds and research in the province!

Really like the basics of this idea.

 

[Evie HJ]

nwinther - which is why THIS idea doesn't have you doing that.

It'd also open up some interesting diplomatic options - a "Create subsidiary" diplomatic move where you request of your fellow nation that they let one of their companies open up a subsidiary in your country, for example.

(IE, Avro Ltd. -> Victory Aircraft in Canada (later, Avro Canada))

 

[Alex_brunius]

It'd also open up some interesting diplomatic options - a "Create subsidiary" diplomatic move where you request of your fellow nation that they let one of their companies open up a subsidiary in your country, for example.

(IE, Avro Ltd. -> Victory Aircraft in Canada (later, Avro Canada))

Wouldn't this actually be a great way to solve the problem of giving contries expanding their industry "teams" to match? You simply get generic smaller versions of your allies team. (Italy could get Focke wulf italy).
#Expand IC in a zone with large Airbase -> Air subsidiary industries might appear.
#Expand IC in a zone with large Navalbase -> Naval subsidiary industries might appear.
#Expand IC in a zone with large energy or metal stockpiles -> Tank subsidiary industries might appear.
#Expand IC in a zone with none of the above -> Smallarms subsidiary industries might appear.

Or more like your Idea this require both countries to have another kind of diplomatic relation like "industrial cooperation". At least for democracys It would feel wrong if you could force certain inustries to open subsidiarys, so thats why Id go with a random approach.

 

[unmerged(48627)]

I think this system would be great for some factories and productions, but not all. Of course you need a shipyard for constructing naval vessels and the vessels would be lost if the Naval Yard is conquered, but when it comes to land- units it should be different when i comes to deployment. Infantry units don`t magically appear at the end of the factory assembly line, the waepons are shipped elsewhere where the units are trained and equipped, and then they are deplyed in active duty. Likewise for tanks and planes. Even ships were built and combat readied at different locations before they were put on active duty.

I like the idea that some factories produce certain units, but the actual units should not be deployed at the factory. And I`d love to fight bitterly for my Ruhr tank factory, no just my generic IC or try to surgically cripple GB by constantly bombing their aircraft factories or shipyards.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

- Events about improving industries (triggered by building IC in their province) pay materials to add/improve their speciallitys or give them more production slots. Adding IC in a province with no Industries could trigger events about getting new ones. Expanding ports or airfields could make your naval or aero industries ask for more funding (to be improved).

I love

I had tried to create events which improve the IC of France every years but cost money. So you have the choice, you create factories and pay or you keep your money.

It's a thing that i hate in HoI2, France and UK can't build more factories during the pre war period...it's not realist...every countries have improved their production capability before and during the war...

So i would prefer that a factory cost money and few IC rather than a lot of IC.

 

[WarDog]

Some nice ideas here. I especially like the thought of building ships in actual shipyards, and not just in thin air.

The question is: Can the EU3 engine cope with this, and can the dev time be allocated to make it into the game?

 

[unmerged(71941)]

Great ideas Alex_brunius.

The number of production 'slots' i guess would be linked to your 'IC'? It would be nice to make this dynamic - so by using lots you would crowd out consumer goods leading to dissent growth but boosting your production.

Also how about if you over-used a particular company it could become less efficient (resting on its laurels type of idea) and other companies who get no contracts could gradually loose capacity and eventually dissappear.

If I think really hard there could be some good economic modelling here that if done right might replicate the economic imperitives that drove Germany to rearm.

Really good ideas - I especially like shipyards being tied to locations.

Len