Procedural Flag Generation

[Minchandre]

A random thought I had, that I'm sure won't get included to Vicky 2 because it's too large for inclusion into a game that's already alpha, is to have the flag-change-upon-revolution function not simply use hardcoded flags, but rather procedurally generate a flag based on national and political symbols. For example, if my French Republic reverts to monarchy, it's possibly that the tricolor will be defaced with one or more gold fleur-de-lis, while going communist may deface the tricolor with appropriate iconography (e.g. farming tools, symbols of industry, stars), or instead assume a red flag with a combination of French and Communist symbols (i.e. a red flag with a fleur-de-lis or rooster together with its sheath wheat and gear); fascist Germany would probably take the Imperial tricolor and add a fist, fasces, axe, or something.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to mod that into the game; you'd need to either incorporate it into the game engine, or create a stand-alone program to do it. If it possible to include calls to external functions in Clauswitz engine mods? Plus, procedural generation is hard.

 

[Kanaric]

US adding states = more stars as well.

I see what you mean.

However some flags depending on who controls the country vary greatly rather than just symbols, but symbology is definiately a factor and both could work side by side.

However I think making the flags individually is easier and accomplishes the same goal.

The only case I can think of where this would definitely benefit over designing different flags depending on changes is the US. I remember I had a mod for victoria 1 that had up to 76 stars for the US and i dont see anyone but a modder doing that for this, and likely it will slow the game down some.

 

[Pickle_mole]

Swastika would seem more appropriate for Germany, no?

 

[Kanaric]

unfortunately that symbol is banned in countries that this game is sold to.

Never understood why they dont release a version of the game without that kind of symbol for the regions that require that. Its just a graphic and is easy to change. Companies who make games with that symbol do that, but this is an entirely different off topic discussion.

 

[TempestDK]

unfortunately that symbol is banned in countries that this game is sold to.

Never understood why they dont release a version of the game without that kind of symbol for the regions that require that. Its just a graphic and is easy to change. Companies who make games with that symbol do that, but this is an entirely different off topic discussion.

I think that PI have decided that anyone wanting banned symbols in their game, can easily mod them in themselves.

no need to make several versions of the game depending on the region, religion or political climate.

 

[Bob Ilyani]

A random thought I had, that I'm sure won't get included to Vicky 2 because it's too large for inclusion into a game that's already alpha, is to have the flag-change-upon-revolution function not simply use hardcoded flags, but rather procedurally generate a flag based on national and political symbols. For example, if my French Republic reverts to monarchy, it's possibly that the tricolor will be defaced with one or more gold fleur-de-lis, while going communist may deface the tricolor with appropriate iconography (e.g. farming tools, symbols of industry, stars), or instead assume a red flag with a combination of French and Communist symbols (i.e. a red flag with a fleur-de-lis or rooster together with its sheath wheat and gear); fascist Germany would probably take the Imperial tricolor and add a fist, fasces, axe, or something.

Could you not just mod in the flags that you want? The ones that have the national symbols in them? I can understand your point for something like the US flag adding stars but I don't see which parts of what you've described can't be done through modding the flag files after release.

 

[Planck]

Maybe that would be a good idea when you want to add some variation to the new flags, and not see them always the same. Like, if you're tired with the lightning bolt of the newly formed fascist "Republic of Britannia", next time you play it could be the fasces or something like that.

Or as someone mentioned in another thread (forgot exactly where), when countries are liberated, they could get a part of the flag of the liberator (such as New Zealand getting the french flag on the corner instead of the Union Flag).

Same thing would be useful for a EU3->Vicky 2 converter, where countries from a different "coloniser" than the historical one would get different flag variations.

 

[Minchandre]

Maybe that would be a good idea when you want to add some variation to the new flags, and not see them always the same. Like, if you're tired with the lightning bolt of the newly formed fascist "Republic of Britannia", next time you play it could be the fasces or something like that.

Or as someone mentioned in another thread (forgot exactly where), when countries are liberated, they could get a part of the flag of the liberator (such as New Zealand getting the french flag on the corner instead of the Union Flag).

Same thing would be useful for a EU3->Vicky 2 converter, where countries from a different "coloniser" than the historical one would get different flag variations.

This exactly! It would be awesome if in one game your People's Republic of Germany gets the farmer's trowel on top of the Imperial tricolor, and then next they out and out adopt a red flag.

Also, re: swastikas. The adoption of the swastika by the Nazi party is historically a little random; it's highly unlikely that any other fascist party under any other circumstances would do the same.

 

[Orinsul]

also the nazis werent fascist so the swastika aint a fascist symbol, its an eastern one.


I would only want this for Colonials.

For Generic can appear anywhere countries, that take the name of the State and a one colour flag with the flag of the master in the corner

i.e. Britain colonises the Congo, releases the dominion of British Congo, has a blue flag with the british flag in left-hand corner
being blue because its say, the third generic TAG country to exist.

But i say for countries that exist, that are important, a predefined flag would be best, prettier and annoy less people.

 

[Yuri_Kenobi]

also the nazis werent fascist

Hah! You're going to have to write an essay on that one if you want to make any sense.


As for the topic suggestion: it's brilliant, and maybe we'll see it in in a mod for Civ6 some time in the future. For now, the limited system of flags that's currently in place will just have to do - with some modding there might be so many flags anyways that you won't know the difference.

 

[Rhion]

I like the idea and I think P'dox even has the tools to do so already. The second I read the title, I was reminded of the character portraits in Rome, which, if I'm not mistaken, used a technique very simmilar to what you're proposing.

I doubt communists would use a fleur-de-lis in their flags though

 

[unmerged(71030)]

I like the idea and I think P'dox even has the tools to do so already. The second I read the title, I was reminded of the character portraits in Rome, which, if I'm not mistaken, used a technique very simmilar to what you're proposing.

Me too! I think it sounds brilliant, and it would add so much depth. Sometimes two man-hours of coding in eye candy can do what twenty hours of coding in complex diplomatic options can't. That's not to say the coders should spend 18 hours drinking and overlook the diplomacy though.

 

[airpirate]

Hah! You're going to have to write an essay on that one if you want to make any sense.

Well, technically, zee Germans were National Socialists, not fascists. while they are basically the same thing, good old Wiki says there are differences:

Although the modern consensus sees Nazism as a type of generic fascism,[335] some scholars, including Gilbert Allardyce, Zeev Sternhell, Karl Dietrich Bracher and A.F.K. Organski, argue that Nazism is not fascism – either because it is different in character or because they believe fascism cannot be generically defined.[336][337][338] Nazism differed from Italian fascism in that it had a stronger emphasis on race, religion, and ethnicity, especially exhibited as antisemitism. Roger Griffin, a leading exponent of the generic fascism theory, wrote:

It might well be claimed that Nazism and Italian fascism were separate species within the same genus, without any implicit assumption that the two species ought to be well-nigh identical. Ernst Nolte has stated that the differences could be easily reconciled by employing a term such as 'radical fascism' for Nazism. ... The establishment of fundamental generic characteristics linking Nazism to movements in other parts of Europe allows further consideration on a comparative basis of the reasons why such movements were able to become a real political danger and gain power in Italy and Germany, whereas in other European countries they remained an unpleasant, but transitory irritant...[339]

Sternhell views Nazism as separate from fascism:

Fascism can in no way be identified with Nazism. Undoubtedly the two ideologies, the two movements, and the two regimes had common characteristics. They often ran parallel to one another or overlapped, but they differed on one fundamental point: the criterion of German national socialism was biological determination. The basis of Nazism was a racism in its most extreme sense, and the fight against Jews, against 'inferior' races, played a more preponderant role in it than the struggle against communism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facist#Nazism_.28National_Socialism.2C_Germany.29

 

[Orinsul]

one off-topic reply to answer the question as to the difference, simply in a way anyone can understand without alot of reading and only a basic understanding of metaphor.

Fascism is Corporate state, the whole of society working together as a single body.
Nazism is racial state, the exclusion of one section of society from the body in order the raise the rest.

Fascism is every organ and limb of the body working in unison under the direction of the head.
Nazism is cutting off the arm you dont like to make the head and the other arm happier.

One is Corporatism the other is Eugenics, and they have no common ground except that both can exist under a dictatorship and both historically made use of the same symbolism and showmanship. But in terms of Ideology, they have almost nothing in common.

but that said
none of this is on topic

 

[Galaahd]

Germany would never adopt the fasces as they were a roman symbol. Italian fascists used them to recall romanity.

 

[Orinsul]

the fascist flags in VIP [i think] were pretty
using national symbols, but a 'fascist' format.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Check out the flag mods for Vic1. Some people went and put in several hundred new flags, including stuff like ten different flags for belgium, which would be applied when Belgium is a satellite of the USA, Britain, Prussia, or similar things. Quite crazy, and I think it would already cover all that you propose in the OP.

Flags are very different and I doubt it would be possible to come up with procedural rules for flag composition that still give you nice looking flags.

 

[Garek Maxwell]

Well, it would work if it was utilizing very simple methods for generating them. For example, having a set template of tricolors, stripes, and other random assortments of bars and shapes that could be color changed through swatches and RGB numbers would be more simple to create. I personally see this more useful as a separate program included in a later expansion, if there is to be anything released by Paradox as all.

 

[Bob Ilyani]

Check out the flag mods for Vic1. Some people went and put in several hundred new flags, including stuff like ten different flags for belgium, which would be applied when Belgium is a satellite of the USA, Britain, Prussia, or similar things. Quite crazy, and I think it would already cover all that you propose in the OP.

Flags are very different and I doubt it would be possible to come up with procedural rules for flag composition that still give you nice looking flags.

Do you have any links? I can't fond those mods in the Vicky Modding section. I want to see those, though.

 

[Orinsul]

VIP has alot, but the different flags for every occassion was the Flag Mod, or something like that. and im on a wickedly slow internet at the moment so i wont even try to find it, but as i remember it wasnt that hard to find as it had it once after all and i wouldnt have gone looking.