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unmerged(1668)

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About ten years into a new IGC as P-L, I decided to annex the Teutonic Order. So I DOW, and my troops promptly get trashed by opposing armies one-third their size. I figured that my army would be further along in land tech than the Order, so I doubt that's the reason I lost so badly. Does the Order start off with better leaders than P-L? I did have a few myself, but they were far from great ones.

I started over a few times, and lucked out when the Order was in the middle of a losing war with Russia. I quickly marched in and took all of their provinces, and annexed them. I made peace with Prussia and the League (their allies) but for the life of me I couldn't end my war with Venice and the Netherlands. I was getting + 6 war exhaustion revolts, but Venice wouldn't accept my peace terms, no matter what. And here's the odd part: I'm certain that Venice nor the Netherlands was allied with the Order, and I don't remember those nations DOW on me.
 

Vulture

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Well yes the Teutonic Order starts out with some splendid leaders...
Tieffen, Plettenberg and Friedriech von Sachsen in the first 10 years. They are all three goodleaders:

Grandmaster Tieffen: 2-1-3-0
Grandmaster Plettenberg: 5-3-4-1 !!!
Grandmaster Friedrich von Sachsen: 2-1-2-0

They also get Albrecht & Brugsenei later on, but they are only mediocre. Their next & last brilliant leader is Magnus. He pops up around 1550 with brilliant stats: 4-3-2-1
 

dralizaar

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key to TO conquest by poland is one of 2 things ...A. wait for them to be in war with Russia and or Sweden then hit them when their troops are commited to taking pskov as tends to happen lots just watch them wait for troops to move then dow and rush in cavalry to lay cover seiges to all provs at same time then the heavier units can move in and do the seige work...this way he cant build more troops...also watch where he is building..that province should get more cover force to beat the new builds fast

second thing dont station troops in weilikka polotsk...if you dow TO and its you on him his troops will always go for weilikka first...you station your troops in Lithunaia and Mazovia..when dow let him commit to seigeing weillikka <build these forts up in weilikka and polotsk befrehnad> then once kurland is empty advance a force in to lay seige, send fast cavalry through to begin covering the other provs and gradually move several small infantry units in to help them break down defences so that when kurland falls your cannons can be moved to next seige which may be weakened by this time...ignore his troops and their seiges...after Kurland falls he will likely try to come back and relieve it...keep a cover force here and keep in mind he will hit livonia on his way...have a good army ready in livonia to hold him off <he should be weaker now with attrition> if you dont want to fight him yet use 1k armies of cavalry and infantry from kursk or smolensk to keep hitting him and fight delaying actiosn pinning his large army in place so they cant move..sacrifice those soldiers for the good of empire this will reduce the losses your bigger armies take

also as Poland first thing you do is go after golden horde...first off taking it pens Russia in and denies her the gold and access to siberia..keeps her managable where you can nibble off pieces at will <let her annex pskov and ryazan as this will lower the bad boy hit you take for taking these provs> golden horde will have lots of revolts dont station troops in Samara the revolts there tend to be 50 to 70k...put like 35k in kb..chev, 16k in vol and 25k in uralsk this will hold the revotls down and kepe control...when samara revolts let attrtion take them down and use the kb force to destroy them...yes you take a stability hit but the gold mine and extra taxes help this out immmensly and the strategic benefits are incalcuable...with these provs set taxes to 0 put it all into research as you will quickly outtech all your neighbors making battles easier and less costly..use your year end taxes to build and handle merchants

watch Russia at all times...when she dows Kazan let her get a ways into the war and lose lots of soldiers then dow her...go after tula tver and novgorod <if pskov is still free let novgorod go for now> this will further weaken her ...go for fast vistory..take these tver and tula then her capitol and get peace fast to avoid lonhg winter war..keep in mind as soon as tula falls he will go to relieve that prov first so tula first then tver <use 3 armies plus send cover forces to all other provs to prevent builds> when you get peace odds are russia will lose to kazan and not annex her yet...now you can sit back and let badboy go down <between 5 and 8 by this point depending on time span> let russia diplo annex ryazan and pskov and she will go after kazan again...then you take pskov and novgorod if you can get 3 provs take one of the 2 none forted provs...after this russia is a nonentity..1 or 2 more wars and you will have all none colonial possession and her capitol..then you can focus on TO and build up to hold back sweden ..if you stagger your efforts and keep provinces down to 2 a war from russia and war every 8 years you will keep badboy almost nothing so no badboy wars :) <at least till you ready> once you have russia beaten you can station more troops in position to sack TO fast <he will prob go after Pskov first now instead of weilikka>...under no circumstance go after sweden...pay her off if needed to keep her happy...you lsoe too many troops trying to take those level 3 forts and all her provs are low supply...and they arent worth having <low value cept for her capitol and nyland> that waring her isnt worth it at all..just build your forts up on border and sation coutner forces 1 prov back to hit hers after wekaned doing assualts on yours


hope this helps ya ...Poland by 1550 in my games owns all russia.golden horde, prussia and TO and will be higher tech then austria in all categories have a 250k standing army and have all prov built up with forts, taxes, justicars nad gettign close to point where she can build govenors as needed
 

unmerged(1668)

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That would explain it...

Grandmaster Tieffen: 2-1-3-0
Grandmaster Plettenberg: 5-3-4-1 !!!
Grandmaster Friedrich von Sachsen: 2-1-2-0

That certainly makes sense. As I mentioned earlier, my troops were getting routed, despite having superior numbers. My leaders were nowhere near as good as the second one that you mentioned.

And dralizaar:

Thanks for the info. I played P-L before, and managed to win the VP race by around 2,000 points. It's a fun campaign once you get started.

The problem that I had with me being unable to end the war with Venice must be a bug. They simply refused to accept peace, which is difficult to understand when considering that they don't even share a border with me! Unless they have a very large fleet that early in the game, I can't understand why they wouldn't want to end the war. (Even if they did have a large fleet, they weren't using it against me) This happened one other time: I was France, and Tuscany was my vassal. We were in a war with Portugal, and I made peace with them, and I acted as leader of the alliance, and so did they when the deal was reached. But somehow they remained at war with Tuscany, and this thing dragged on for years and years. I was getting annoyed because I wanted to annex Tuscany, but since they were at war, I couldn't. My BB was too high to DOW Portugal, so I had to wait it out. I swear that they were at war for at least 10-15 years, and neither nation ever attacked the other. Weird.

Oh by the way, I'm too lazy to download 2.3 :D
 
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dralizaar

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yes typically after 36 months of inactivity peace gets a white peace...so your enemies must have fought minor naval battles once in while or something...although id heard that sending diplomats that fail will extend that time as it constitues activity...i have noticed in my wars with people i couldnt reach if i sent ambassadors to try and get peace it took longer to get a white peace...or vice versa...i wouldnt get a white pace even after 5 years of inactivity because the computer kept asking for peace with demands...unsure if this is true for everyone it just seems this way in my games..that diplomat5ic actions reset the 36 months of inactivity to get a white peace

as for vencie being at war with you did you look at the peace window and see if they were leader ? <evne if they arent leader of alliance as whole they may or may not be leader of the war against you..> find out who the leader who dowed you was by checkign that peace window maybe it was another nation in the alliance and try to diplo them out..or if you already did that and it was venice i dont know what to say..keep in mind computer has that hidden star which means you need to get a couple vicotoires or take 1 prov in order to get them to accept a white peace normally...for now venice thinks its winnign the war so unless you offer 250 gold she wont take peace probably..or have you tried that?
 

State Machine

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Originally posted by dralizaar
yes typically after 36 months of inactivity peace gets a white peace...so your enemies must have fought minor naval battles once in while or something...although id heard that sending diplomats that fail will extend that time as it constitues activity...i have noticed in my wars with people i couldnt reach if i sent ambassadors to try and get peace it took longer to get a white peace...or vice versa...i wouldnt get a white pace even after 5 years of inactivity because the computer kept asking for peace with demands...unsure if this is true for everyone it just seems this way in my games..that diplomat5ic actions reset the 36 months of inactivity to get a white peace
I've seen the ai desperately trying to hustle me for endemnities shortly before the 36 month white peace occurs. The peace still occurs on schedule. The 36 month rule must have some other parameters, though. What they are...
 

unmerged(5190)

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smutnoe vremya

i and playing p-l. in 1535 pruessen attacked and i annexed them(i believed this happened historically in 1525). next sweden took over teutonic knights. sometime in 1550s sweden, along with denmark and netherlands attacked. incredibly i won and took estonia. question:
when to p-l time of troubles begin? in 2.3 i checked this option box. i am assuming it must be in 17th century, but dont know for sure.
 

unmerged(1668)

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although id heard that sending diplomats that fail will extend that time as it constitues activity...

That must have been it. I was sending a diplomat every chance I got. I wish I would have known about the 36 month rule.

And I really like your strategy about defeating Russia. It's far too late in my IGC for that though. :(
 

pithorr

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Re: smutnoe vremya

Originally posted by senex
question:
when to p-l time of troubles begin? in 2.3 i checked this option box. i am assuming it must be in 17th century, but dont know for sure.

In 1648: Civil war - Cossacks uprise under Chmielnicki began Commonwealth decline. Russia supported Cossacks in their fight. Just after Swedish forces attacked in 1655. In 1656 Prussian traitors and... Transylvania joined to proceed partition of the Commonwealt. Afterall Habsburgs helped Poles, Dutch helped Danzig (never fell into Swedish hands), Russia and finally Prussia changed front and Commonwealth forces managed to push Swedes out, even intervene in the conflict in Denmark. But after that disaster Poland was plundered and exhausted. Never would stand up...
 

dralizaar

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yep 1640 polish monarchs signed a treaty which would allow Ukraine to officially join Poland permanently like Lithunaia did...Russians hearign this motivated the disatified elements and funed a revolt...Poland went in to put it down and Russia went in to "protect" the other half...the revolt led to partition of Ukraine Russiua gettign all lands east of Dneipr Poland the lands west...this was first nail in coffin for Poland as it removed a ally from her borders which had held enemies at bay for so long and allowed Russia to gain too much border land


160's known as the Deluge...Turkish, Swedish, Russian armies were all over poland during course the era...Swedish conquests actually stopped by a monastary which is now famous "Black Madonna" painting was in this monastary and is credited for the change in tides...it was her failure to take this monastary that signaled to the Swedes that the invasion was doomed to fail..they were too overextended...at the end of the war all enemies had been driven out and Poland lost nothing <cept for her failure to gain all of Ukraine> yet her economy was in ruins, her populations cut down in size, and her political scene was much in turmoil ...this is where the Seym failed her people most as their petty bickering and greeds paved the way for foreign ventures that could not have occured if she had remained untied agaisnt foreign threats...1700's led to 3 partitions :( <although late 1600's Poland had one more climb to the top under Sobieski..when he died the light went out :( >
 

unmerged(5571)

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In reply to Licou

I've managed to build a strong P-L.

Expanded to the east (into russia), i avoid the muslims, as i've put the tolerance for them down to zero.

Expanded to the West annexing (making me a bad person) all the little piddling countries, apart from Netherlands, up to france.

Expanded to the South by annexing Hungary, and as soon as i can get a peace treaty with their ally Portugal, i will be able to annex Venice, which will make it so much easier to reduce Austria to nothing. Then i'll see if i can get Italy, although i'll probably run out of time as it's 1730ish.
 

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strong p-l

I completely agree with dralizaar. First things first is to go after the golden horde and keep Russia in check. The thing to do here is to declare war in september and let them cross borders come October. They usually lose 60% of whatever forces they have just from the cold. Then I use a leader to slowly nible away their land until finaly, some two or three years later, I annex a country using a total army of maybe 50,000, while my western reserves of some 200,000 remain intact.


I normally wait a while before going after Courland or the Teutonic Order. Actualy, in a few short years Courland looses their 'vassal' status and has no alliances. This allows you to just walk in and take the place. Prussia too; eventually their 'alliances' end and it's a pretty good idea to just go after them even if means loosing 2 stability.

Just because Austria pisses me off, I try to vassalize Hungary before they do. It works when you make an alliance with them, but keep track of this as as soon as your alliance runs out, Austria is right there to form her alliance with Hungary. I lucked out in the current game I'm playing so I did the next best thing; joined that alliance. But it sucks because someone always keeps going to war and so the alliance expiration date keeps on gaining years. Damn it. If I only kept an eye on my expiration date with Hungary in the first place...shoot.

If you want to wage war on someone, but are afraid of loosing 2 stability, just wage war on Nippon. You have a permament causis belli, and more likely than not, someone's going to wage war on you as soon as you wage war on Nippon... granted, you must a high bad-boy. Usually, the 6 diplomats I have will keep me out of the big conflicts. I did that when I wanted to take Styria from Austria, worked like a charm. It's sort of cheating but I'd say the computer cheats when it says 'Decrease of Monarch values for 6 months' and the damn king stays dumb for the remainder of his reign.

In the Northern War campaign, Austria really starts likeing me for some reason. Even though I eventualy get a larger force than the Austrians, I can't attack their weakly defended borders to get those factories because they're the only person who likes me on the map.
Can't live with her, can't live without her.

For Poland, I focus on getting Infrastructure to 2 as quickly as possible. Then Trade to 3. Then infra to 3. Then trade and land tech. I wait till I have trade at 5 to go back to infrastructure. By this time my inflation is pretty bad so I need those governors rather than wait for the random -33% inflation. Level 12 land tech is really pesky because sometimes I only need 10,000 and sometimes, like now, I need 13,000. In times like this, I pray for
-33% inflation.

The Hanseatic League and all those pesky nations on the West eventually get swallowed up by P-L. But it really sucks at first because they usually get into pentuple alliances and you have to fight a combined army of 150,000 (???? When did that happen historicaly?).

One question, how the heck do I get a country to take my 'loan'? I've only been able to successfuly lend 20 Ducats to Sweden one time, this after trying over and over again with other countries.
Is there a trick to this?

My buddy was playing with Turkey and by 1610 he controlled basically the entire map. It was disgusting. He had all land tech before 1600. But that's another story.
 
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One question, how the heck do I get a country to take my 'loan'? I've only been able to successfuly lend 20 Ducats to Sweden one time, this after trying over and over again with other countries.
Is there a trick to this?

Relation must be good. Even then many nations refuse to take large loans. The trick was, if my memore does not deceive me, to offer them repeated loans. Many nations that refuse a 100g loan will happily accept 10 loans of 10g each.