Problems with Muscovy and what there can be done about it

[Thravid]

Muscovy has been getting nerfed since the first release of the game and now it is just too far.
Novgorod allies Poland way too often, whenever Novgorod forms Russia they never colonize, winter does not influence game play enough. Russia won 10/12 wars with the Ottomans. That will never happen in-game.

In a testing run I did some research on manpower and let's say country A and Muscovy both have 100k base manpower pre-1.12, Muscovy's total manpower would be 175k due to its ideas and traditions. Now, say patch 1.12 halved base manpower. This would mean that both countries would have 50k base manpower and Muscovy a total manpower of 87.5k. This means that due to the patch, country A has lost 50k manpower, whereas Muscovy has lost 87.5k manpower. So Muscovy was hit 75% harder by the base manpower nerf in 1.12 than regular countries.

Now here are some suggestions to help Muscovite/Novgorod Russia:
Novgorod Russia should be encouraged into Siberia too
Russia should get a 10%-20% bonus in Morale, possibly Infantry Combat Ability, the Streltsy where a pretty strong unit at the time.
-10% Fort maintenance
Winter should have a bigger modifier

Just in general a rework of the ideas.
For the fort maintenance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zasechnaya_cherta
This was used to keep raiders away from the Hordes. This idea is a no brainer.

Commonwealth HAS to be tweaked in a mayor way. Literally HALF the stats in all provinces, Commonwealth NEVER had that big of an industry/population to be able to represent what it is in the game. Right now it's so disbalanced that Prussia never is able to exist, Russia never rises, and Austria is put down like a dog early. Polish ideas can take some fixing too if possible, not necessary. I'm very curious in what the new Estate system has to bring, I hope it may represent Orthodox dukes in the PLC defecting from the Catholic Poles.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

False, Muscovy received a massive buff in 1.13.1 and is now stronger relative to history than its neighbors...except Lithuania which is even more over-buffed relative to history. Johan doesn't want to change it on grounds of Lithuania being too unstable, which doesn't make sense considering implementations for Ming, Timurids, and Muscovy.

AI Muscovy's struggles are unrelated to its NIs, but rather the AI's inability to handle the ever-changing rebels + fort mechanics and the stupidity that is 300+ development Lithuania in 1444. Unless you juice their NIs beyond recognition it won't change the flow of the region.

 

[Zelius]

In a testing run I did some research on manpower and let's say country A and Muscovy both have 100k base manpower pre-1.12, Muscovy's total manpower would be 175k due to its ideas and traditions. Now, say patch 1.12 halved base manpower. This would mean that both countries would have 50k base manpower and Muscovy a total manpower of 87.5k. This means that due to the patch, country A has lost 50k manpower, whereas Muscovy has lost 87.5k manpower. So Muscovy was hit 75% harder by the base manpower nerf in 1.12 than regular countries.

.... but proportionally there's no difference, right? I don't get it.

 

[BrokenSky]

.... but proportionally there's no difference, right? I don't get it.

The point is it weakens the bonus of extra manpower. Say all the manpower -> 0. Then the bonus gives 1.75*0 = 0. Hence the value of these specific ideas/traditions is proportional to manpower. Hold in mind that these bonuses come at the cost of potentially having something else, so if manpower -> 0 everywhere, Muscovy would be weaker than everyone else because it would have fewer bonuses. So the question is, did this nerf to manpower hurt Muscovy too much compared to other countries?

 

[Anatur]

I have noticed some serious immersion breaking problems while playing Muscovy.

Firstly the conquest of Novgorod,so i can basically take 90% of Novgorods russian provinces,including their capital,turning them into some Karelian hermit but i cant just take all of it at once,real Novgorod couldnt survive as a state without the russian heartland and restricted to the northern wastelands,two wars to take it is just needlessly dragging out the inevitable and slowing muscovy down.
Another issue is Novgorodian alliance problems,it seems to have a fixation with allying Scotland whenever its left alone,Ryazan or Tver i could understand,but Novgorod allying Scotland and Scotts descending into Narve is just redicolus.

Secondly the "west PU blob" is to much of a headache,ive seen wars where i consistently kept smashing Lithuanian armies yet Lithuania was somehow magically able to recover those losses,a Lithuania that lost several battles and tens of thousands of soldiers should be finished as a threat.
Its bad enough you have to march through all of Lithuania to even get to Poland,having Lituania rival Poland in millitary capacity is redicolus.

Thirdly,Muscovys vassals are just unwieldly,i know some were actually semi-independent but not like thats ever stoped Paradox from making solid nations before,if Muscovy could marshal all of that land and manpower from the get go it would probably have an easier time and might even be enough to let it annex Novgorod immediatly.

 

[magnusvejby]

I have noticed some serious immersion breaking problems while playing Muscovy.

Another issue is Novgorodian alliance problems,it seems to have a fixation with allying Scotland whenever its left alone,Ryazan or Tver i could understand,but Novgorod allying Scotland and Scotts descending into Narve is just redicolus.

I think the reason Novogord allies Scotland is because they both rivaled Denmark and they both neighbor Norway who is a vassal of Denmark, so it ain't really a bad decision to ally Scotland as Novgorod.

 

[Incompetent]

The point is it weakens the bonus of extra manpower. Say all the manpower -> 0. Then the bonus gives 1.75*0 = 0. Hence the value of these specific ideas/traditions is proportional to manpower. Hold in mind that these bonuses come at the cost of potentially having something else, so if manpower -> 0 everywhere, Muscovy would be weaker than everyone else because it would have fewer bonuses. So the question is, did this nerf to manpower hurt Muscovy too much compared to other countries?

The relative benefit of a manpower bonus is only 'proportional to manpower' if fighting wars with zero manpower reserve and merc spam is the standard way to play (so that regulars are basically just a 'bonus troops who don't ask for much money'). If you can't afford to merc spam, then shallower manpower pools make manpower bonuses all the more critical, so you aren't constantly hitting the bottom of the barrel.