Problems with Islam in CK3

[Baron von Shoes]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Caliphates:

• Due to technical limitations, each Faith can only have 1 Religious Head. Additionally, Religious Heads cannot currently be shared between Faiths.
• The Sunni Caliphate (which mechanically belongs to the Ash'ari branch of Islam) is only the Religious Head of that one Faith.
  • We gave the Caliphate title to the Ash'ari branch of Islam because they were historically the most dominant school during our time period.
  • Most other Sunni Faiths, such as the Mu'tazila, have the 'No Head' Doctrine, as they do not compete with/contest the Ash'ari Sunni Caliphate.
    • Two Sunni Faiths can create their own Caliphates, as they did in history, though these Caliphate titles will not exist on game start:
      • The Muwalladi (Umayadd) Caliphate
      • The Masmudi (Almohad) Caliphate
  • We would very much like to add support for multiple Faiths to share a single Religious Head in a future patch.
    • This would allow all (or at least most, might exclude the Muwalladi/Masmudi) Sunni Faiths to share the Sunni Caliphate as their Religious Head, with the Caliph personally being able to follow any Sunni Faiths while still being the Religious Head of all of them.
    • Unfortunately, due to various limitations we will not be able to implement this for release.
• The Shia Caliphate is designated as the Isma'ili Head of Faith.
  • Other Shia Faiths do have their own Religious Heads, but they are called Imams instead of Caliphs.

Hostility:

• Whether a Faith considers another Faith to be 'Righteous', 'Astray', or 'Hostile' is as much of a game balance question as it is a historical one.
• On launch, all Sunni Faiths will consider each other to be 'Astray'.
  • Despite not being 'Righteous', they still have very friendly relationships among themselves.
    • 'Astray' faiths may have slightly different practices but they are not considered to be heretical.
    • Only 'Hostile' and worse Faiths are considered heretical, with the appropriate consequences (imprisonment, holy wars, etc.).
  • Whether certain Faiths view each other as 'Astray' or 'Righteous' is subject to change in future patches as we balance and tweak the game.
  • Mods, of course, are free to change these designations as they see fit.
    • Modifying a Faith's Hostility is a relatively simple task and should be easy for even inexperienced modders to accomplish.

Virtues/Sins:

• For balance reasons, each Religion has only 3 traits defined as Sins, even though other behaviors may have been considered sinful.
  • Celibacy was not selected to be one of the 3 Sins for Islam.
  • As always, mods are free to add or remove Virtues and Sins as they see fit, even going beyond the 3-trait limitation.

Tenets (Christian Syncretism):

• For balance reasons, each Faith has only 3 Tenets.
  • Only the 3 most politically and religiously important aspects of each Faith were selected as Tenets.
    • What 3 Tenets we picked for each Faith was a judgement call made by us.
      • As is often the case when dealing with religious matters, people will have different views as to what is more correct.
      • We are not religious authorities, but made the choice that made the most sense to us with the information we had available.
      • As always, players can use mods to alter the game as they see fit.
    • Faiths may still have historically practiced certain elements of other Tenets, such as the Islamic view of other People of the Book.
      • This echoes the way that not all Christian faiths have the Communion Tenet, even though they may have practiced communion.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Caliphates:

• Due to technical limitations, each Faith can only have 1 Religious Head. Additionally, Religious Heads cannot currently be shared between Faiths.
• The Sunni Caliphate (which mechanically belongs to the Ash'ari branch of Islam) is only the Religious Head of that one Faith.
  • We gave the Caliphate title to the Ash'ari branch of Islam because they were historically the most dominant school during our time period.
  • Most other Sunni Faiths, such as the Mu'tazila, have the 'No Head' Doctrine, as they do not compete with/contest the Ash'ari Sunni Caliphate.
    • Two Sunni Faiths can create their own Caliphates, as they did in history, though these Caliphate titles will not exist on game start:
      • The Muwalladi (Umayadd) Caliphate
      • The Masmudi (Almohad) Caliphate
  • We would very much like to add support for multiple Faiths to share a single Religious Head in a future patch.
    • This would allow all (or at least most, might exclude the Muwalladi/Masmudi) Sunni Faiths to share the Sunni Caliphate as their Religious Head, with the Caliph personally being able to follow any Sunni Faiths while still being the Religious Head of all of them.
    • Unfortunately, due to various limitations we will not be able to implement this for release.
• The Shia Caliphate is designated as the Isma'ili Head of Faith.
  • Other Shia Faiths do have their own Religious Heads, but they are called Imams instead of Caliphs.

Hostility:

• Whether a Faith considers another Faith to be 'Righteous', 'Astray', or 'Hostile' is as much of a game balance question as it is a historical one.
• On launch, all Sunni Faiths will consider each other to be 'Astray'.
  • Despite not being 'Righteous', they still have very friendly relationships among themselves.
    • 'Astray' faiths may have slightly different practices but they are not considered to be heretical.
    • Only 'Hostile' and worse Faiths are considered heretical, with the appropriate consequences (imprisonment, holy wars, etc.).
  • Whether certain Faiths view each other as 'Astray' or 'Righteous' is subject to change in future patches as we balance and tweak the game.
  • Mods, of course, are free to change these designations as they see fit.
    • Modifying a Faith's Hostility is a relatively simple task and should be easy for even inexperienced modders to accomplish.

Virtues/Sins:

• For balance reasons, each Religion has only 3 traits defined as Sins, even though other behaviors may have been considered sinful.
  • Celibacy was not selected to be one of the 3 Sins for Islam.
  • As always, mods are free to add or remove Virtues and Sins as they see fit, even going beyond the 3-trait limitation.

Tenets (Christian Syncretism):

• For balance reasons, each Faith has only 3 Tenets.
  • Only the 3 most politically and religiously important aspects of each Faith were selected as Tenets.
    • What 3 Tenets we picked for each Faith was a judgement call made by us.
      • As is often the case when dealing with religious matters, people will have different views as to what is more correct.
      • We are not religious authorities, but made the choice that made the most sense to us with the information we had available.
      • As always, players can use mods to alter the game as they see fit.
    • Faiths may still have historically practiced certain elements of other Tenets, such as the Islamic view of other People of the Book.
      • This echoes the way that not all Christian faiths have the Communion Tenet, even though they may have practiced communion.

Thank you for your exhaustive reply! But I have one more question: is dynamic scrolling implemented in the tenets screen, like the buildings view for CK2 holdings? (i.e. if players mod buildings in, the game generates a scrolling screen to avoid crumpling)

 

[Baron von Shoes]

Thank you for your exhaustive reply! But I have one more question: is dynamic scrolling implemented in the tenets screen, like the buildings view for CK2 holdings? (i.e. if players mod buildings in, the game generates a scrolling screen to avoid crumpling)

Unfortunately we do not currently have dynamic scrolling for the Tenets screen.

While you can add additional Tenets to a Faith, it looks quite messy. With 4 Tenets there will be some overlapping text, and at 5+ Tenets some information will start to go off the side of the screen (though all of the correct effects still get applied).

As an alternative, a modder could convert a specific Tenet into a Doctrine or duplicate the effects of a Tenet inside of a new Doctrine. Doctrines do support dynamic scrolling, so this is probably the easiest solution. A more difficult solution would be to have a modder edit the GUI script to add dynamic scrolling for Tenets, which might be tricky but is certainly still possible.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Unfortunately we do not currently have dynamic scrolling for the Tenets screen.

While you can add additional Tenets to a Faith, it looks quite messy. With 4 Tenets there will be some overlapping text, and at 5+ Tenets some information will start to go off the side of the screen (though all of the correct effects still get applied).

As an alternative, a modder could convert a specific Tenet into a Doctrine or duplicate the effects of a Tenet inside of a new Doctrine. Doctrines do support dynamic scrolling, so this is probably the easiest solution. A more difficult solution would be to have a modder edit the GUI script to add dynamic scrolling for Tenets, which might be tricky but is certainly still possible.

I see, the issue is merely aesthetical then. As a side note, with the rigidity of the Tenets screen, maybe it would serve as the Doctrine screen better? I don't know, but Doctrines sound more important than Tenets. It would suit for them to be aesthetically rigid, too.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Caliphates:

• Due to technical limitations, each Faith can only have 1 Religious Head. Additionally, Religious Heads cannot currently be shared between Faiths.
• The Sunni Caliphate (which mechanically belongs to the Ash'ari branch of Islam) is only the Religious Head of that one Faith.
  • We gave the Caliphate title to the Ash'ari branch of Islam because they were historically the most dominant school during our time period.
  • Most other Sunni Faiths, such as the Mu'tazila, have the 'No Head' Doctrine, as they do not compete with/contest the Ash'ari Sunni Caliphate.
    • Two Sunni Faiths can create their own Caliphates, as they did in history, though these Caliphate titles will not exist on game start:
      • The Muwalladi (Umayadd) Caliphate
      • The Masmudi (Almohad) Caliphate
  • We would very much like to add support for multiple Faiths to share a single Religious Head in a future patch.
    • This would allow all (or at least most, might exclude the Muwalladi/Masmudi) Sunni Faiths to share the Sunni Caliphate as their Religious Head, with the Caliph personally being able to follow any Sunni Faiths while still being the Religious Head of all of them.
    • Unfortunately, due to various limitations we will not be able to implement this for release.
• The Shia Caliphate is designated as the Isma'ili Head of Faith.
  • Other Shia Faiths do have their own Religious Heads, but they are called Imams instead of Caliphs.

Hostility:

• Whether a Faith considers another Faith to be 'Righteous', 'Astray', or 'Hostile' is as much of a game balance question as it is a historical one.
• On launch, all Sunni Faiths will consider each other to be 'Astray'.
  • Despite not being 'Righteous', they still have very friendly relationships among themselves.
    • 'Astray' faiths may have slightly different practices but they are not considered to be heretical.
    • Only 'Hostile' and worse Faiths are considered heretical, with the appropriate consequences (imprisonment, holy wars, etc.).
  • Whether certain Faiths view each other as 'Astray' or 'Righteous' is subject to change in future patches as we balance and tweak the game.
  • Mods, of course, are free to change these designations as they see fit.
    • Modifying a Faith's Hostility is a relatively simple task and should be easy for even inexperienced modders to accomplish.

Virtues/Sins:

• For balance reasons, each Religion has only 3 traits defined as Sins, even though other behaviors may have been considered sinful.
  • Celibacy was not selected to be one of the 3 Sins for Islam.
  • As always, mods are free to add or remove Virtues and Sins as they see fit, even going beyond the 3-trait limitation.

Tenets (Christian Syncretism):

• For balance reasons, each Faith has only 3 Tenets.
  • Only the 3 most politically and religiously important aspects of each Faith were selected as Tenets.
    • What 3 Tenets we picked for each Faith was a judgement call made by us.
      • As is often the case when dealing with religious matters, people will have different views as to what is more correct.
      • We are not religious authorities, but made the choice that made the most sense to us with the information we had available.
      • As always, players can use mods to alter the game as they see fit.
    • Faiths may still have historically practiced certain elements of other Tenets, such as the Islamic view of other People of the Book.
      • This echoes the way that not all Christian faiths have the Communion Tenet, even though they may have practiced communion.

Thanks for the response. Has any consideration been given to not having the Caliph be the Religious Head for any Sunni Faith? At least in CK2, the Religious Head was usually a Pope-analogue. Sunni Islam does not have a Pope-analogue. Jurisprudential matters are decided by reference to the ulama. Religious understanding placed the Caliph as the political sovereign of the Ummah, and this gave Caliphs the opportunity to influence religious matters by favouring or disfavouring particular schools of Sunni thought, so there was a mutual relationship, but the Caliph wasn't accorded specific religious authority in Sunni Islam.

Having the Caliph simply be a titular role that any Sunni ruler can claim if they have a particular level of power or rank would seem to be the way forward, particularly if claiming the title of Caliph unlocks new events for interacting with the ulama and or introduces hostility and mutual casus belli between competing claimants for the title.

In some very rough respects, the role of Caliph could almost be seen as equivalent to the Byzantine Emperors or the Holy Roman Emperors. At least nominally, the Roman Imperial title was understood in medieval theology to denote a claim to rule a universal Christendom, akin to the concept of the Ummah. The Roman Imperial title did not in itself confer religious authority, but the Byzantine Emperors certianly had an outsized influence on which jurisprudential matters rose and fell by favouring or disfavouring particular communities of scholars (less so for the Holy Roman Empire because of the greater degree of independence held by the Catholic Church).

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Thanks for the response. Has any consideration been given to not having the Caliph be the Religious Head for any Sunni Faith? At least in CK2, the Religious Head was usually a Pope-analogue. Sunni Islam does not have a Pope-analogue. Jurisprudential matters are decided by reference to the ulama. Religious understanding placed the Caliph as the political sovereign of the Ummah, and this gave Caliphs the opportunity to influence religious matters by favouring or disfavouring particular schools of Sunni thought, so there was a mutual relationship, but the Caliph wasn't accored specific religious authority in Sunni Islam.

Having the Caliph simply be a titular role that any Sunni ruler can claim if they have a particular level of power or rank would seem to be the way forward, particularly if claiming the title of Caliph unlocks new events for interacting with the ulama and or introduces hostility and mutual casus belli between competing claimants for the title.

In some very rough respects, the role of Caliph could almost be seen as equivalent to the Byzantine Emperors or the Holy Roman Emperors. At least nominally, the Roman Imperial title was understood in medieval theology to denote a claim to rule a universal Christendom, akin to the concept of the Ummah. The Roman Imperial title did not in itself confer religious authority, but the Byzantine Emperors certianly had an outsized influence on which jurisprudential matters rose and fell by favouring or disfavouring particular communities of scholars (less so for the Holy Roman Empire because of the greater degree of independence held by the Catholic Church).

Well, for most of what you said to happen, first of all, the ulama has to exist first, even as a EU-ish "estate" of "clergy" or something like that ...

 

[CrabHelmet]

Well, for most of what you said to happen, first of all, the ulama has to exist first, even as a EU-ish "estate" of "clergy" or something like that ...

I agree it would be nice for them to be represented by a specific mechanic, but to have them mostly covered by a series of events is fine as a temporary measure. CK2 always struggled with how to deal with politically important yet landless classes, even to an extent parts of the Catholic clergy despite them being at the core of the game, so I'd rather wait a bit and see CK3 do it right than expect anything for the release.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

I'd rather wait and bit and see

Wise words my friend, wise words.

 

[Teutonic_Thrash]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Caliphates:

• Due to technical limitations, each Faith can only have 1 Religious Head. Additionally, Religious Heads cannot currently be shared between Faiths.
• The Sunni Caliphate (which mechanically belongs to the Ash'ari branch of Islam) is only the Religious Head of that one Faith.
  • We gave the Caliphate title to the Ash'ari branch of Islam because they were historically the most dominant school during our time period.
  • Most other Sunni Faiths, such as the Mu'tazila, have the 'No Head' Doctrine, as they do not compete with/contest the Ash'ari Sunni Caliphate.
    • Two Sunni Faiths can create their own Caliphates, as they did in history, though these Caliphate titles will not exist on game start:
      • The Muwalladi (Umayadd) Caliphate
      • The Masmudi (Almohad) Caliphate
  • We would very much like to add support for multiple Faiths to share a single Religious Head in a future patch.
    • This would allow all (or at least most, might exclude the Muwalladi/Masmudi) Sunni Faiths to share the Sunni Caliphate as their Religious Head, with the Caliph personally being able to follow any Sunni Faiths while still being the Religious Head of all of them.
    • Unfortunately, due to various limitations we will not be able to implement this for release.
• The Shia Caliphate is designated as the Isma'ili Head of Faith.
  • Other Shia Faiths do have their own Religious Heads, but they are called Imams instead of Caliphs.

Hostility:

• Whether a Faith considers another Faith to be 'Righteous', 'Astray', or 'Hostile' is as much of a game balance question as it is a historical one.
• On launch, all Sunni Faiths will consider each other to be 'Astray'.
  • Despite not being 'Righteous', they still have very friendly relationships among themselves.
    • 'Astray' faiths may have slightly different practices but they are not considered to be heretical.
    • Only 'Hostile' and worse Faiths are considered heretical, with the appropriate consequences (imprisonment, holy wars, etc.).
  • Whether certain Faiths view each other as 'Astray' or 'Righteous' is subject to change in future patches as we balance and tweak the game.
  • Mods, of course, are free to change these designations as they see fit.
    • Modifying a Faith's Hostility is a relatively simple task and should be easy for even inexperienced modders to accomplish.

Virtues/Sins:

• For balance reasons, each Religion has only 3 traits defined as Sins, even though other behaviors may have been considered sinful.
  • Celibacy was not selected to be one of the 3 Sins for Islam.
  • As always, mods are free to add or remove Virtues and Sins as they see fit, even going beyond the 3-trait limitation.

Tenets (Christian Syncretism):

• For balance reasons, each Faith has only 3 Tenets.
  • Only the 3 most politically and religiously important aspects of each Faith were selected as Tenets.
    • What 3 Tenets we picked for each Faith was a judgement call made by us.
      • As is often the case when dealing with religious matters, people will have different views as to what is more correct.
      • We are not religious authorities, but made the choice that made the most sense to us with the information we had available.
      • As always, players can use mods to alter the game as they see fit.
    • Faiths may still have historically practiced certain elements of other Tenets, such as the Islamic view of other People of the Book.
      • This echoes the way that not all Christian faiths have the Communion Tenet, even though they may have practiced communion.

I'll repost my comment from Dev Diary 22 about the "Muwalladi" and "Masmudi":

"Muwalladi". Muwalladun (singular muwallad) was a term used in al-Andalus to refer to native converts to Islam, not a separate religion so unless there's some finickity gameplay reason Iberian Muslims need to be a separate faith, I don't see the need for it.

Is Masmudi meant to be the "religion" of the Almohads/al-Muwahhidun? I can see why you wouldn't want to tie it to just the Almohads, but naming it Masmudi also ties it just to the Masmuda Berbers, which would also be a bad idea because the "religion" was really just an extreme reaction to the perceived anthropomorphism of God that other Islamic denominations were allegedly engaging. I have no problem with a Faith like this being in game, but the name shouldn't have any ethnic or geographical connotations since technically it could appear anywhere in the Islamic world (this is all assuming that Masmudi is the Almohad ideology).

 

[DavidYung]

I'll repost my comment from Dev Diary 22 about the "Muwalladi" and "Masmudi":

Masmudi could just be changed to the original Arabic name for Almohad: Muwahhidi. It has its own problems, of course, as Druze call themselves this, and every Muslim considers themselves that (monotheist - those who adhere to Tawhid), but I think it would be a better fit than Masmudi and gets the idea across of what the movement is about (if it can pop up anywhere).

For Al-Andalus, the Muwallad and Walladun thing was a continuation of old early Clan relations used under the Umayyad Caliphate. If you wanted to convert, you were essentially adopted into a clan and would be their servant but would also come into the line of heirs (way down the list). This system continued in Al-Andalus and was rejected by the Abbasids (it is why the Abbasid Revolution happened in the first place, because it disadvantaged new converts).

So really, the whole muwallad-waladun dynamic was more so a policy than a real theological position.

There is some sense to it, I suppose, but there would need to be a better word for it. Maybe just Waladi to refer to the whole system. Alternatively, I would just say it should be like an anti-Pope (but I think that is not scheduled for release, correct?). So maybe Waladi for now, and later an anti-pope/rival Caliph mechanic to claim the Sunni Caliphate?

 

[EmoPro]

6. In Dev Diary #21 we saw the "Christian Syncretism" tenet. The description given is very.... mainstream Islam? I may have misunderstood it, is it trying the make the Bible Islamically canon? In which case that is a plausible heresy.

To be fair, the quran did affirm the teachings of the Torah and Bible before the muslim 'scholars' and leaders today twist it such that it self promotes Islam.

 

[DavidYung]

To be fair, the quran did affirm the teachings of the Torah and Bible before the muslim 'scholars' and leaders today twist it such that it self promotes Islam.

I think the Quran necessarly promotes itself as more valid than the previous Books (as those are corrupted according to the tradition). The Quran contains different readings on what to think of non-Muslim believers in God as well, so it is not that straightforward as the ´scholars´ changed it around (they did mostly spin it one way though, I agree - but not without Scriptural basis, because it is there).

Something that is an actual syncretic idea is the Gospel of Barnabas (More of a Christian first, Muslim second idea - was conjured up by Muslim converts to Christianity in the whole Spanish Inquisition ordeal) that tried to link the Bible and Muhammad´s prophethood more strongly, while still affirm Christ as being, for example, crucified, and the most important of all Prophets.

A Muslim faith with Christian syncretism is maybe harder to define... because Christianity could take so many forms (monasticism or not, Trinitarian or not), if anything, it would place a stronger emphasis on Christ and his ethics and his role as somehow the ultimate savior of mankind, while Muhammad is... the Paraclete maybe? The reminder? An embodiment of the Holy Spirit? Still sounds more Christian than Muslim that way...

 

[EmoPro]

I think the Quran necessarly promotes itself as more valid than the previous Books (as those are corrupted according to the tradition). The Quran contains different readings on what to think of non-Muslim believers in God as well, so it is not that straightforward as the ´scholars´ changed it around (they did mostly spin it one way though, I agree - but not without Scriptural basis, because it is there).

Something that is an actual syncretic idea is the Gospel of Barnabas (More of a Christian first, Muslim second idea - was conjured up by Muslim converts to Christianity in the whole Spanish Inquisition ordeal) that tried to link the Bible and Muhammad´s prophethood more strongly, while still affirm Christ as being, for example, crucified, and the most important of all Prophets.

I think I should not dive deep into the theology here but the Muslim world is contradicting itself. On one hand praising the Jews and Christians as fellow believers and in later chapters called for their persecution... Yeah. I have my thoughts about it and IMO CK3 team dint do anything wrong as mentioned by the OP. The OP should just move on (regarding this topic, that is).

 

[Baron von Shoes]

Thanks for the response. Has any consideration been given to not having the Caliph be the Religious Head for any Sunni Faith? At least in CK2, the Religious Head was usually a Pope-analogue. Sunni Islam does not have a Pope-analogue. Jurisprudential matters are decided by reference to the ulama. Religious understanding placed the Caliph as the political sovereign of the Ummah, and this gave Caliphs the opportunity to influence religious matters by favouring or disfavouring particular schools of Sunni thought, so there was a mutual relationship, but the Caliph wasn't accorded specific religious authority in Sunni Islam.

The only power the Caliph(s) have in CK3 at the moment is the power to declare a Jihad against a particular target. In this sense they sort of are political leaders as much as religious ones; they don't have power over doctrine, but they can rally the faithful to a specific temporal cause.

Well, for most of what you said to happen, first of all, the ulama has to exist first, even as a EU-ish "estate" of "clergy" or something like that ...

Yes. I would love to have an actual system for the ulama. Unfortunately, the realities of development have put that well out of scope for now. Hopefully in a future patch!

I'll repost my comment from Dev Diary 22 about the "Muwalladi" and "Masmudi":

This is one of those areas where the collision between gameplay and history creates a bit of an awkward resolution. We wanted to model the way that Islamic, Christian, and Jewish societies intermingled in the Iberian peninsula, and did this by creating the "Muwalladi" Faith which has Tenets and Doctrines that place a stronger emphasis on this than the Tenets and Doctrines that the Ash'ari Faith has. It's not a perfect solution, but it is the one we felt worked the best. Remember, what Tenets a faith has can reflect not just the actual beliefs of it's followers but also the political situation of its leaders and adherents.

 

[CrabHelmet]

The only power the Caliph(s) have in CK3 at the moment is the power to declare a Jihad against a particular target. In this sense they sort of are political leaders as much as religious ones; they don't have power over doctrine, but they can rally the faithful to a specific temporal cause.

I suppose my final question is therefore: does this mean that e.g. the Mu'tazila Faith is incapable of declaring jihads? Or participating in them? Since they have no Caliph to declare them. This would be a somewhat odd design decision. Although slightly before the timeframe of the game, al-Ma'mun endorsed the Mu'tazila school of faith and yet also participated in large-scale warfare predicated on religious conquest with the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Zhetone]

I think it's unfortunate that the Caliph can only come from one branch of Sunni Islam (aside from the two that can have Caliphs which I assume are a bit geographically isolates to Iberia and Morocco respectively) but the implementation at least avoids having a bunch of Sunni caliphs running around.

 

[Teutonic_Thrash]

This is one of those areas where the collision between gameplay and history creates a bit of an awkward resolution. We wanted to model the way that Islamic, Christian, and Jewish societies intermingled in the Iberian peninsula, and did this by creating the "Muwalladi" Faith which has Tenets and Doctrines that place a stronger emphasis on this than the Tenets and Doctrines that the Ash'ari Faith has. It's not a perfect solution, but it is the one we felt worked the best. Remember, what Tenets a faith has can reflect not just the actual beliefs of it's followers but also the political situation of its leaders and adherents.

Can you reveal what the tenets of the two faiths are?

 

[vyshan]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Caliphates:

• Due to technical limitations, each Faith can only have 1 Religious Head. Additionally, Religious Heads cannot currently be shared between Faiths.
• The Sunni Caliphate (which mechanically belongs to the Ash'ari branch of Islam) is only the Religious Head of that one Faith.
  • We gave the Caliphate title to the Ash'ari branch of Islam because they were historically the most dominant school during our time period.
  • Most other Sunni Faiths, such as the Mu'tazila, have the 'No Head' Doctrine, as they do not compete with/contest the Ash'ari Sunni Caliphate.
    • Two Sunni Faiths can create their own Caliphates, as they did in history, though these Caliphate titles will not exist on game start:
      • The Muwalladi (Umayadd) Caliphate
      • The Masmudi (Almohad) Caliphate
  • We would very much like to add support for multiple Faiths to share a single Religious Head in a future patch.
    • This would allow all (or at least most, might exclude the Muwalladi/Masmudi) Sunni Faiths to share the Sunni Caliphate as their Religious Head, with the Caliph personally being able to follow any Sunni Faiths while still being the Religious Head of all of them.
    • Unfortunately, due to various limitations we will not be able to implement this for release.
• The Shia Caliphate is designated as the Isma'ili Head of Faith.
  • Other Shia Faiths do have their own Religious Heads, but they are called Imams instead of Caliphs.

Hostility:

• Whether a Faith considers another Faith to be 'Righteous', 'Astray', or 'Hostile' is as much of a game balance question as it is a historical one.
• On launch, all Sunni Faiths will consider each other to be 'Astray'.
  • Despite not being 'Righteous', they still have very friendly relationships among themselves.
    • 'Astray' faiths may have slightly different practices but they are not considered to be heretical.
    • Only 'Hostile' and worse Faiths are considered heretical, with the appropriate consequences (imprisonment, holy wars, etc.).
  • Whether certain Faiths view each other as 'Astray' or 'Righteous' is subject to change in future patches as we balance and tweak the game.
  • Mods, of course, are free to change these designations as they see fit.
    • Modifying a Faith's Hostility is a relatively simple task and should be easy for even inexperienced modders to accomplish.

Virtues/Sins:

• For balance reasons, each Religion has only 3 traits defined as Sins, even though other behaviors may have been considered sinful.
  • Celibacy was not selected to be one of the 3 Sins for Islam.
  • As always, mods are free to add or remove Virtues and Sins as they see fit, even going beyond the 3-trait limitation.

Tenets (Christian Syncretism):

• For balance reasons, each Faith has only 3 Tenets.
  • Only the 3 most politically and religiously important aspects of each Faith were selected as Tenets.
    • What 3 Tenets we picked for each Faith was a judgement call made by us.
      • As is often the case when dealing with religious matters, people will have different views as to what is more correct.
      • We are not religious authorities, but made the choice that made the most sense to us with the information we had available.
      • As always, players can use mods to alter the game as they see fit.
    • Faiths may still have historically practiced certain elements of other Tenets, such as the Islamic view of other People of the Book.
      • This echoes the way that not all Christian faiths have the Communion Tenet, even though they may have practiced communion.

Thanks Baron Von Shoes(when are you going to become the Duke of shoes? )

Question: if one of the other Sunni faiths becomes more powerful then Ash'ari could they usurp the Caliph from the Ash'ari?

 

[Baron von Shoes]

I suppose my final question is therefore: does this mean that e.g. the Mu'tazila Faith is incapable of declaring jihads?

In the sense of having Great Holy War level Jihads, yes. Individual rulers still have regular Holy War

Can you reveal what the tenets of the two faiths are?

The main difference is the inclusion of the 'Adaptive' Tenet for the Muwalladi, which both increases your own Faith's resistance to being converted as well as granting significant reductions to the penalties for having vassals or counties of a different Faith. There are some other changes as well, such as Muwalladi having Cordoba as one of their 5 Holy Sites.

Question: if one of the other Sunni faiths becomes more powerful then Ash'ari could they usurp the Caliph from the Ash'ari?

Not in the base game. It would theoretically be possible to mod something like that in, though it might be a little janky (I think you would have to destroy the old Caliphate title and create a new one with the same name).

 

[DeinonychusTaco]

Hello everyone,

I would like to clarify some information regarding how the various Muslim Faiths are set up in Crusader Kings III:

Appreciate you going into this much detail about the system and future plans; I hadn't realized this was an issue for Islam, but it explains some things about the religious behavior and future possibilities on the Christian side too and strengthens my belief that, although CK3's religion system may not be fully baked at release, it's inherently a very good design that will have better-than-2 mechanics at release and some really great mechanics after patch improvements.