Problems with France in the 1936 scenario

[Crazy-Krauthead]

As i played France today first time, i realized that France has greatly being nerved so its not as strong as it actual should be. It feels like France has be greatly weakened to make sure it loses the war, equal how bad its enemies play.

1. At the beginning of WW2 France had one of the biggest Armies of the world. With this few recruitable mensource its impossible to reach that. Just one example, as France surrendered, 1,5 million french soldiers became prisoners of war-and that were only the ones, who the Germans could catch, means the ones on French mainland, not the ones evacuated to Britain or being in the colonies. In HOI4 it´s impossible to build up such a huge french army by lack of menpower.

2. Which leads to my 2nd Point: Why in hell have all the french troops nearly no weapons at the start of the 1936 scenario? France REDUCED its army from 872.000 men in 1920 to 512.409 men in 1936. So whats the point, did they just throw away all equipment? This is really silly and looks like an "Enemy at the Gates"-scenario, where the 1st soldier gets a rifle and the 2nd waits that the first one dies.

3. France has not even one oil deposit, which isn´t accurate in many ways. On the one hand France had some small oil deposits like Germany too, on the other it owned a big part of the oil companies in Iraq. Of cause in the actual tradesystem its impossible to get that "free" oil from ur companies in another country here.

But the small deposits should at least be added like the German ones. On Wikipedia u can find a french oilmap between both WWs(orange ones are oil deposits, when even small ones like those in Germany/Austria): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_der_Ölförderung_Frankreichs#/media/File:Oil_wells_and_refineries_France_map-fr.svg

4. Whats the deal with the low war-industry of France? It´s as small as the ones of Spain. France had lots of Artillery and Tanks and of cause rifles and machine guns. With the bad starting situation(lots of unarmed division and no weapons in storage) and that minisize war production its hard to imagine to reach that, especially with the strike event in France.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

Yeah, and Germany is buffed, USA is nerfed etc. These are the sort of sacrifices you have to make to keep the game overall balanced and fun. Now don't get me wrong, I love playing France and I have played it perhaps more than any other country, but I think France should be relatively quick to fall without good player intervention.
The main problem is that numbers-wise, France falling in WW2 is... well, an anomaly. Like, numbers-wise it shouldn't have happened so quickly, and there's not easy way in gameplay to represent that. And if France doesn't fall, playing as UK, USA and Soviet Union suddenly becomes pretty much pointless without strong enough Germany to be a threat to whole world. Eastern front has similar design choice where Soviets WILL lose the war eventually, even though that can be debated whether or not that is realistic. The point is that if the AI Soviets could just solo Germany, playing the Western Allies wouldn't have much excitement, wouldn't it?

1. France starts with largest army in Europe after the Soviets. Yeah it needs some serious manpower min-max to get into few million soldiers, and I agree it's not all that historical. It does make a good challenge for the French player though, and gives initiative to beat Germany before they outbuild everyone. One way to win Germany is to declare war on them instantly when Rhineland fires, deal with the civil war quickly and then just beat them with army double or triple to theirs.
2. Idk, balance I guess? If they didn't have that rifle shortage, you could mop Germany extremely easy in any war starting 1936-1938. You're right again, it doesn't really mirror history that well. French problems were in organization and morale, not in equipment.
3. This is actually pretty weird since UKs and USAs oil companies in Mexico are represented in MtG. However it's quite new system so I'm expecting France getting their own oil from Middle East in their own update.
4. As said before, mostly balance.

You could make interesting WWII grans strategy with more historical industry setup, but it would need complex logistics system and probably internal politics and so on to make the Allies face the problems they faced in history. If you just take the numbers from history and strap them in HoI4, you would end up with a game where Germany loses embarrassingly every time after few years of stalemate - and that wouldn't be fun for anyone.

I'm actually fearing they might buff France some day. Yeah, it would be more historically accurate, but France is my favorite nation to play exactly because it's weak enough to be challenge but strong enough to do major stuff it it survives Germany.

 

[orochi2k]

Of cause in the actual tradesystem its impossible to get that "free" oil from ur companies in another country here.

Mexico disagrees. USA gets free oil from Mexico from the beginning.

 

[epicmemory]

Balance is the obvious reason, but there's another factor at play as well.

It's really, really, really hard to simulate something like the Fall of France in a game. Specifically, it's really hard to replicate the reasons for the French defeat. Sure, we have doctrines and unit organization and planning speed and a bunch of 'little' mechanics, but it's just incredibly complicated to try to simulate the level (and extent) of doctrinal failures and keep the game playable. The issue here is that the Fall of France was (arguably) the result of bad decision-making and ineffectual leadership: that's really difficult to reflect in-game.

We can move divisions with the click of a button, solve partisan issues by flooding the land with Dothraki, and plan entire offensives with a few clicks. That level of abstraction makes the series of tactical, operational, and strategic failures of 1940 that led to the FoF trick to replicate.

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

It's really, really, really hard to simulate something like the Fall of France in a game. Specifically, it's really hard to replicate the reasons for the French defeat.

This.

 

[Bunnytob]

1) Extensive conscription, and/or balance.
2) Balance.
3) Balance/not done yet.

 

[KDEstroy]

Balance is the obvious reason, but there's another factor at play as well.

It's really, really, really hard to simulate something like the Fall of France in a game. Specifically, it's really hard to replicate the reasons for the French defeat. Sure, we have doctrines and unit organization and planning speed and a bunch of 'little' mechanics, but it's just incredibly complicated to try to simulate the level (and extent) of doctrinal failures and keep the game playable. The issue here is that the Fall of France was (arguably) the result of bad decision-making and ineffectual leadership: that's really difficult to reflect in-game.

We can move divisions with the click of a button, solve partisan issues by flooding the land with Dothraki, and plan entire offensives with a few clicks. That level of abstraction makes the series of tactical, operational, and strategic failures of 1940 that led to the FoF trick to replicate.

I think it wouldn't actually be that difficult to simulate poor leadership in HOI4. Just give France a national spirit which causes an enormous command power debuff, and change player micro so that manually ordering divisions around costs command power. Drawing frontlines and offensive plans should also cost command power, but considerably less than player micro.

As we all know, the current frontline AI is quite bad at dealing with breakthroughs and frequently leaves gaps in front lines, so if the France player happens to be low on command power at the wrong moment, BAMM the Panzers breaks through and the next thing you know the Allied army is encircled at Dunkirk.

Yes, I know that's not exactly what happened, but it's more realistic than current military command mechanics in HOI4, and such abstractions would still maintain game balance, at the player's expense of course.

edit: command power not political power

 

[marcelo r. r.]

the main problem is AI vs AI, a more strong France will always hold. The German AI dont know how to blitz, basically all AI in the game just try wins only by attrition war.

but im in favor off a Africa based France getting more stronger. in old Hoi2, France had always something like 20-25 divisions in Africa + some ships.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

as house rule to myself, i consider win by attrition war +30 days in france a failure, when its happens i reload and try again.

 

[Crazy-Krauthead]

Thx for all the answers. In one point I must disagree: France will always easily surrender cause of the low morale. U Just need to take them 50% of the normal victory points to get them down.

And u could remove the "extended Maginot Line" From the Techtree and forbid the french AI to build fortifications at the Belgian border. The German troops will overrun the french ones there as usual, cause the German AI invades the Benelux states.

The French Army also lacks organisation and has low morale due to their army doctrine, and they have a really big nerv on doctrine research.

But some things drive me mad-like France has no electric company. i mean FRANCE. Other countries like Turkey, Iran etc. can establish an electric company for +15% electricresearch.

Anyway, I play France for the challenge too, but some things are so ridiculous, that they destroy all fun.

 

[Crazy-Krauthead]

Mexico disagrees. USA gets free oil from Mexico from the beginning.

Ok didnt know that

 

[lwarmonger]

You could make interesting WWII grans strategy with more historical industry setup, but it would need complex logistics system and probably internal politics and so on to make the Allies face the problems they faced in history. If you just take the numbers from history and strap them in HoI4, you would end up with a game where Germany loses embarrassingly every time after few years of stalemate - and that wouldn't be fun for anyone.

ULTRA mod does this.

It also mods out the crazy ahistorical industrial gains that countries receive from conquest also.

And does a great job of replicating the conversion from civilian to military industry, instead of just having everyone build all new industrial plant.

Would encourage everyone here to give it a try.

 

[GundamMerc]

ULTRA mod does this.

It also mods out the crazy ahistorical industrial gains that countries receive from conquest also.

And does a great job of replicating the conversion from civilian to military industry, instead of just having everyone build all new industrial plant.

Would encourage everyone here to give it a try.

As much as people like the Ultra mod... it's not exactly a breeze to learn. It's funny, people go all "vanilla HoI IV is for casuals (specifically speaking before MtG update)", and then when I try to actually teach a friend how to play by explaining it to them, they just sit in silence for a bit before going "What?". And no, I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the Ultra mod actually reflects anything close to creating the actual circumstances that cause issues when trying to build in those issues to keep things "historical". It's the same thing I see in Black Ice and despise honestly. Adding things that happened historically but failing to account for the reasons it occurred historically, inadvertently making the gameplay less realistic.

 

[KDEstroy]

Thx for all the answers. In one point I must disagree: France will always easily surrender cause of the low morale. U Just need to take them 50% of the normal victory points to get them down..

Actually, France gets an automatic 30% bonus to War support (due to being on the defensive side) , plus around a 20% bonus from world tension when WWII starts, plus France can start running propaganda campaigns the moment Germany declares war on Poland, plus the "disjointed government" spirit is easily removed by 1938, so you still need to take about 80% of France's VP to get them to capitulate.

However, the main French line of defense is the Alps and the Maginot line, the moment Germany or Italy bypasses either of those, France is basically dead, so surrender limit hardly matters.

 

[lwarmonger]

As much as people like the Ultra mod... it's not exactly a breeze to learn. It's funny, people go all "vanilla HoI IV is for casuals (specifically speaking before MtG update)", and then when I try to actually teach a friend how to play by explaining it to them, they just sit in silence for a bit before going "What?". And no, I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the Ultra mod actually reflects anything close to creating the actual circumstances that cause issues when trying to build in those issues to keep things "historical". It's the same thing I see in Black Ice and despise honestly. Adding things that happened historically but failing to account for the reasons it occurred historically, inadvertently making the gameplay less realistic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but I play HOI IV to play a WWII grand strategy game, and ULTRA gets me far closer to that than vanilla.

If you arent a fan, that is of course your right, but I would still encourage people who havent tried it to give it a shot and make that decision for themselves.

 

[Faust-chan]

They could buff France to at least not capitulate 2 weeks after the start of the war. I think it lacks manpower to properly hold the line against Germany.

 

[Meglok]

Between 1920 and the fall of the Third Republic in 1940, France had 44 different governments and over 20 different Prime Ministers. If you look up basket case there is a picture of interwar France in the dictionary. A large army means nothing with poor leadership, no strategic direction other than hide behind walls, and no morale.

 

[KDEstroy]

Between 1920 and the fall of the Third Republic in 1940, France had 44 different governments and over 20 different Prime Ministers. If you look up basket case there is a picture of interwar France in the dictionary. A large army means nothing with poor leadership, no strategic direction other than hide behind walls, and no morale.

Question is, is it possible to simulate this in HOI4? If yes, should the devs do it?

 

[Meglok]

Question is, is it possible to simulate this in HOI4? If yes, should the devs do it?

To the extent they can using the available code they have and will when France gets a revised tree. But they are not going to recreate the 1939 French army if that destroys game balance. The disjointed govt NS really puts the screws on to what France can do politically if it is also doing focuses. French research is limited at first, and while large the army is weak. But in the end ai France is going to lose to Germany in a historical game, no amount of wishful or revisionist thinking is going to change that.

 

[Crazy-Krauthead]

As finally the iraq oil became british, France should get its 25% pieceof the iraq oilcake, like making the oil of Mosul french.