Problems with Forts in HoI4

[Bolshevik-]

From my experience in using land forts, they build way too fast. In addition to this, level 10 forts are way too ops and extending level 10 forts across the Belgian border as France would make France impenetrable in the event of a German invasion. This goes with many places including Greece, Italy, and Crimea. Not to mention the mountains in Greece and Italy would make this an even worse problem.

Swamps and deserts should have an effect on how effective forts are and how quickly they construct yet this sadly hasn't been implemented

Many hosts make fort limit 6 as a rule. Now with this new upcoming update with the impassable zones it would seem that building a level 10 fort at El Alamein would basically make Egypt impenetrable by land. I personally feel that something needs to be done about this.

Thoughts, comments? I know some people may say simply "get heavy TD" but usually by the time nations run into the forts and then researched/built the stuff a couple years has passed. Also a couple thousand CAS will make the tanks useless.

 

[LordAkkrand]

Won't that same "couple of thousand CAS" make the defenders of the fort useless?

 

[Jamey]

Forts are more expensive to build with each level. Going from level 0 to 10 should take 27,500 production (unless I screwed up my math), which is an entire year of production by 15 CIC (with zero production bonus or penalty). That is a staggering industrial commitment to protect a single province.

 

[Bolshevik-]

Won't that same "couple of thousand CAS" make the defenders of the fort useless?

CAS is useless without air superiority. In addition, divisions filled with anti-tank won't even need CAS to pop tanks attacking the fort.

 

[Bolshevik-]

Forts are more expensive to build with each level. Going from level 0 to 10 should take 27,500 production (unless I screwed up my math), which is an entire year of production by 15 CIC (with zero production bonus or penalty). That is a staggering industrial commitment to protect a single province.

Sure it may be the case, yet with the extend Maginot line focus and perhaps the stationary focus taking away cost penalty for fort construction France could easily extend level 10 forts along the Belgian border. I don't see Germany being able to handle this unless they have large heavy tank divisions when WWII starts. Even then I have doubts.

 

[adam_grif]

Forts are more expensive to build with each level. Going from level 0 to 10 should take 27,500 production (unless I screwed up my math), which is an entire year of production by 15 CIC (with zero production bonus or penalty). That is a staggering industrial commitment to protect a single province.

They are expensive at higher levels, but France does get 2 free levels which, if timed correctly, can be the last 2 levels (for some provinces).

 

[LordAkkrand]

CAS is useless without air superiority. In addition, divisions filled with anti-tank won't even need CAS to pop tanks attacking the fort.

I wasn't aware of that. In my games, the other guy having air superiority does jack-all to the hordes of CAS bombing the crap out of his divisions. You put 2000 FTR in a zone and they put 2000 CAS in a zone, in 1939, and the CAS will win those ground combats before the FTR kill half of them.
It wouldn't be tanks attacking the fort in this case... it would be infantry, just to be there, so the CAS could bomb your defenders.

 

[Meglok]

I wasn't aware of that. In my games, the other guy having air superiority does jack-all to the hordes of CAS bombing the crap out of his divisions. You put 2000 FTR in a zone and they put 2000 CAS in a zone, in 1939, and the CAS will win those ground combats before the FTR kill half of them.
It wouldn't be tanks attacking the fort in this case... it would be infantry, just to be there, so the CAS could bomb your defenders.

CAS with doctrines can stand up to fighters quite well in the early war, esp if they have some covering fighters.

Forts are more expensive to build with each level. Going from level 0 to 10 should take 27,500 production (unless I screwed up my math), which is an entire year of production by 15 CIC (with zero production bonus or penalty). That is a staggering industrial commitment to protect a single province.

Not so bad if you use available doctrines to go the last 2 forts, either 4-6 or 8-10, depending on if there are house rules. Nothing like free forts.

Forts are still too cheap on the higher ends to make, and they cost no resources at all. Their side benefit is that either your opponent is going to spend a crap ton of IC countering them or breaking them. Or he figures a way to avoid them, which could be to your benefit also.

 

[Daliena]

I almost said 'what about naval invasions' but that's unlikely to work because the Channel is obviously a massive death-trap for any German vessels, and whether the Regia Marina can secure the Mediterranean is questionable too..

What about strategic bombing? I believe that would also damage the forts, and unless kept rapidly repaired would steadily reduce their effectiveness, leaving the French player with a choice of whether he wants to expand his own infrastructure and industrial capacity or rapidly repair the forts to ensure no breakthroughs. Or perhaps bringing Spain into the fight, opening another front? No free NF forts on the Pyrenees either.

 

[Vidkjaer]

CAS with doctrines can stand up to fighters quite well in the early war, esp if they have some covering fighters.

If you put your fighters on interception insted of air superiority more CAS will be shot down. Then if you put AA in your divisions you can counter the air superiority penalty you get and have more Hard attack to counter heavy armor attacking your forts.

 

[Jamey]

Not so bad if you use available doctrines to go the last 2 forts, either 4-6 or 8-10, depending on if there are house rules. Nothing like free forts.

That's more of an argument against NFs for forts than that forts are too cheap.

Forts are still too cheap on the higher ends to make, and they cost no resources at all. Their side benefit is that either your opponent is going to spend a crap ton of IC countering them or breaking them. Or he figures a way to avoid them, which could be to your benefit also.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that high tier forts could be more expensive.

However, if you are not France (with the NFs for free forts), the cost of going from zero to 10 in even a few provinces consumes vast amounts of CIC, leaving you with far fewer factories and presumably far fewer divisions with weapons.

This leads me to conclude that this really is about France and possibly places with real chokepoints with only one or two provinces to build forts in. That's a pretty short list of places, even with impassible terrain added to North Africa to make some choke points.

 

[--Yigito123--]

That's more of an argument against NFs for forts than that forts are too cheap.


I'm sympathetic to the idea that high tier forts could be more expensive.

However, if you are not France (with the NFs for free forts), the cost of going from zero to 10 in even a few provinces consumes vast amounts of CIC, leaving you with far fewer factories and presumably far fewer divisions with weapons.

This leads me to conclude that this really is about France and possibly places with real chokepoints with only one or two provinces to build forts in. That's a pretty short list of places, even with impassible terrain added to North Africa to make some choke points.

Maybe we could make it so fort focuses get skipped if there already are x level forts where they'll put them? I mean, it doesn't really make sense to "Fortify X place" when it already has pretty good fortifications.