Problems in getting the " good feel" for Eu IV

[Flammehav]

I've been playing the EU series since Eu 2, and is a big fa of the series. I haven't had the time to play the game as much as I would like, but enough to get into most of all the small things that makes the games unique.

I picked up EU IV a while ago, I hardly had time to play it much at all, but the first impression is confusion and annoyance. Confusion is not really surprising, when I first picked up EU2, I made so many mistake and ended up rage quitting and shelving it for 6 months before I took it up again. Though over time I learned both the basic mechanics, like how BB points worked, and the smaller things, like how to wage war successfully and building a strong economy.

The transition into EU3, took some time, and I didn't really care for the game before after the 2 first expansions. Now I got the full game of course and it's a lot better than EU2. I am assuming I'm just having some "start difficulties" again, but not sure how I'm gonna get the motivation to play EU IV, until I can learn to fully appreciate it, when atm I think Eu 3 is more fun(probably because I understand it better).

One of the things that kinda bothers me is the new technology system. I'm just getting the basic grasps of it, but it seems limiting in many ways, + I think it's way to dependent on your ruler. Having a bad ruler hurt your technology in Eu3 too, but assuming you was at least a halfway decent player, that wasn't much of an impact a while into the game. Bad rulers was more damaging in things like BB burn, WE exhaustion and to battle overextention and things like that. If you got a bad ruler now, you're pretty much stuck with a VERY slow progression, not only in technology, but also in other things like coring and making peace deals. Advisers can only help you so much and they're expensive. Am I missing something here or is having a good ruler alpha and omega in this game?

The other thing that confuses me is the trade system. I picked France for my first game, to have some leeway to screw up things until I got the hang of it. I've seen the movies about the trade system, I've read about it from several sources, but I just can't get the hang of it. Apparently I'm trading in several nodes. One is just outside my southwestern coast, one is further north and one down in Africa if I remember correctly. I can use the light ship to increase my trade income, that makes sense, as more ships= more trade done and so more money. But how do I know where my ships will be doing most good? And should I place all in one node or spread them out? Should I maybe start trading in other nodes than what I currently do? Also I found out you can forward trade to other nodes too, this also effects your income, but atm I 'm just placing them at random places and have absolutely no clue about what I'm doing.

The other things, like the change of Interface, and different mechanics, is weird, but I'm slowly learning where all the buttons are and what they do (the EU series was never really intuitive with their interfaces). There is many other small things that I might not agree in, but these two things are game breaking for me atm. A bad monarch brakes your game or at least slows it down and you just fast forward until you have enough monarch points to press a button, and then fast forward again. That is not a fun game in my book. And the totally confusing trade system.

So the main question is: Will it get better? Will I eventually understand the trade system and will the monarch system "grow on you" and become less annoying or maybe even fun as you get used to it or later in the game? ( I haven't played all that far yet). Did any of you had similar concerns when you started playing and now find the game better than EU3, or will it keep being a downer to the point where I would feel that I've wasted my time and I would have been better of just playing Eu 3 instead?

 

[pyrish]

The other thing that confuses me is the trade system. I picked France for my first game, to have some leeway to screw up things until I got the hang of it. I've seen the movies about the trade system, I've read about it from several sources, but I just can't get the hang of it. Apparently I'm trading in several nodes. One is just outside my southwestern coast, one is further north and one down in Africa if I remember correctly. I can use the light ship to increase my trade income, that makes sense, as more ships= more trade done and so more money. But how do I know where my ships will be doing most good? And should I place all in one node or spread them out? Should I maybe start trading in other nodes than what I currently do? Also I found out you can forward trade to other nodes too, this also effects your income, but atm I 'm just placing them at random places and have absolutely no clue about what I'm doing.

I can't help with most of your issues but trade isn't nearly as hard as most people make it out, atleast to understand the basics that is....

first thing to realize is that there are 2 factors to pay attention to:
trade power and trade value

Trade value = money in a node
Trade power = power your country influences in a node (this eventually equals a percentage of total trade power)

each province generates a certain amount of trade power and trade value(dependent on trade good supply/demand)

Trade power is generated in a few ways:

inland province = (1.00 +buildings + center of trade/estuary bonus)*mercantilism bonus
coastal province = (1.50 +buildings + center of trade/estuary bonus)*mercantilism bonus
light ships = 3.00*(number of ships)*(some maneuver bonus of admiral not 100% sure here)
power pushed upstream from an adjacent node you have power in at a rate of 20%

Trade value is generated by provinces in the node and can be pushed downstream but not upstream.


So in the end you collect "trade value" at your capitol by the % of total "trade power" you control in your node

Now the real question is it worth it to push trade downstream or just collect per node? that question I cannot answer

 

[Flammehav]

Is trade power in a node something similar like the numbers of merchants you had in a CoT in EU 3. If you had 5 merchants you got 25% of the money in that node multiplied with your TE (trade efficiency). So does that equal to 25% trade power*mercantilism (which I guess is sort of TE?)?

Also if another nation decides to put in a bunch of ships to increase their trade power in a node I'm collecting in, will that decrease my trade power in that node? ( like competing out merchants). Also if they push trade value to another node, that node would be less worth. That would certainly lead to conflicts is some other nation tried to steal my trade.

Also I still don't get the thing about pushing power up and downstream. I can change 20% of my power in one node to another node? How many ships will that take, compared to just increase the power with them directly? I'm guessing downstreams generally mean from inland and towards the sea, and the opposite for upstream?

So if I I get this correct. If I have some provinces that trade in another country's node, I will still get some money from it, without collecting with any ships, because my provinces will give me some trade power in that node. But since the value of what I get will be low (or none existent if I don't have any provinces that trade there), because of low TP, I can either push trade value downstream(if possible) to a node I have more TP in, or if I have lots of trade power in a low value node nearby I can push 20% of that TP up to the more valuable node inland?

 

[JakobGood]

So if I I get this correct. If I have some provinces that trade in another country's node, I will still get some money from it, without collecting with any ships, because my provinces will give me some trade power in that node. But since the value of what I get will be low (or none existent if I don't have any provinces that trade there), because of low TP, I can either push trade value downstream(if possible) to a node I have more TP in, or if I have lots of trade power in a low value node nearby I can push 20% of that TP up to the more valuable node inland?

I am by no means a trade expert, but a couple of things. All trade goes to the 2 end nodes, Antwerp and Venice. So lets say you own a province or 2 in the Caribbean, not as much as say Spain, Portugal etc. You trade value would itself would not be very good. Light ships would boost the power (think your ships guarding the sea lane home to you) and a Merchant would direct (or steer) the trade to Bordeaux instead of Sevilla. If you didn't have the merchant, your goods would go to Sevilla. If you put that Merchant in Sevilla and steered towards Bordeaux, you would be steering the trade after Portugal and Spain get their cut (by collecting in their node). If you collect in Bordeaux, you take your cut, but because it isn't an end node, you won't get all of it. That is one of the ways the Netherlands and Venice can dominate, they don't have to worry about any other merchants forwarding trade past their nodes. As France you have to worry about England and the Netherlands area pushing your trade around France and in to London/Antwerpen.

Without rambling too much more, Light ships/ merchants together can steer trade and make you profit without owning the majority. The EU4 wiki helped explain it for me, though I am no expert. I find this system easier to grasp then EU3's.

 

[MiniaAr]

Is trade power in a node something similar like the numbers of merchants you had in a CoT in EU 3. If you had 5 merchants you got 25% of the money in that node multiplied with your TE (trade efficiency). So does that equal to 25% trade power*mercantilism (which I guess is sort of TE?)?

Trade Efficiency and Mercantilism are two different variables, even if Trade Efficiency does kind of the same thing as Mercantilism (half of TE is applied as a modifier to trade power, from all sources when Mercantilism is a modifier to provincial trade power only). But you're right, having more trade power is comparable to having more merchants in a COT in EU3. The formula is a little more complex than what you suggested:
Total trade power= [Trade power from Light ships*(1+5%*Maneuver skill of Admiral) + Trade power from provinces*(1+2*Mercantilism)] * [(1+Trade Efficiency)]

Also if another nation decides to put in a bunch of ships to increase their trade power in a node I'm collecting in, will that decrease my trade power in that node? ( like competing out merchants). Also if they push trade value to another node, that node would be less worth. That would certainly lead to conflicts is some other nation tried to steal my trade.

It will indeed decrease your trade power in that node. If they are hurting your trade to much, an easy way to get some of it back is to embargo that country (do not forget to also set that country as a rival, otherwise you will suffer a -5% TE).

Also I still don't get the thing about pushing power up and downstream. I can change 20% of my power in one node to another node? How many ships will that take, compared to just increase the power with them directly? I'm guessing downstreams generally mean from inland and towards the sea, and the opposite for upstream?

Trade value is only going one way, basically from Eastern Asia/America to Europe. Loops are not possible as they would crash the game. Then there are three types of nodes: Starting nodes i.e. without incoming routes, are upstream of all nodes/ End nodes i.e. without outgoing routes are downstream of all nodes/ Nodes in between are both upstream and downstream from other nodes. At every node, trade value is either collected or goes downstream (when it's possible). Trade power can go upstream, but only with a sharp penalty (only 20% can come back).

So if I I get this correct. If I have some provinces that trade in another country's node, I will still get some money from it, without collecting with any ships, because my provinces will give me some trade power in that node. But since the value of what I get will be low (or none existent if I don't have any provinces that trade there), because of low TP, I can either push trade value downstream(if possible) to a node I have more TP in, or if I have lots of trade power in a low value node nearby I can push 20% of that TP up to the more valuable node inland?

No you will collect in a node only if you either have a merchant in this node, or if your capital is in the node. If you don't have a merchant but have trade power (i.e. provinces in a node), then your trade power will be used either to push trade value downstream, if your capital or a collecting node can be reached that way, or only trade power will be sent back, with a 80% penalty, to a node upstream if your capital is upstream.

Let's take France as an exemple. You're likely to have trade power in Bordeaux (trade node where your capital is), Antwerpen and Genoa. Now what should you do:
Bordeaux: You will collect automatically there, but an additional merchant will give you +10% trade income. If no other placement is suitable, then leave a merchant collecting there.

Antwerpen: The node is downstream from your capital, you won't get trade value back. If you do not place a merchant here, you will get 20% of your trade power in this node, applied in Bordeaux. But as Antwerpen is quite wealthy usually, you should really place a merchant to collect there. However, there is a 50% trade power penalty to collect in a node where you don't have your capital in. Now you have two possibilities, either you try to control as much provinces as you can in this node and embargo countries that use light ships there, or you move your capital to this node (move it to a French cultured province, for example Vermandois). The latter solution will force you to use a merchant in Bordeaux to steer trade to Antwerpen. It's also considered an abomination to play France and not have your capital in Paris

Genoa: This one is a tough one. Without a merchant there, your trade power will be used to push/steer trade value to Sevilla. Now you can place a merchant in Sevilla and bombard this node will a lot of light ships to steer to Bordeaux (where you will collect as your capital is there). If you did the capital move to Antwerpen node trick, then use a merchant in Genoa to steer directly to Antwerpen. Finally, if you have neither enough light ships to steal trade in Sevilla, nor moved your capital in the Antwerpen node, it's better to just collect directly in Genoa by placing a merchant there.

Hope this can help you somehow. You should really read the wiki about it.

 

[pyrish]

Is trade power in a node something similar like the numbers of merchants you had in a CoT in EU 3. If you had 5 merchants you got 25% of the money in that node multiplied with your TE (trade efficiency). So does that equal to 25% trade power*mercantilism (which I guess is sort of TE?)?

Also if another nation decides to put in a bunch of ships to increase their trade power in a node I'm collecting in, will that decrease my trade power in that node? ( like competing out merchants). Also if they push trade value to another node, that node would be less worth. That would certainly lead to conflicts is some other nation tried to steal my trade.

EU4 is my first Paradox game so I do not know anything about previous games.

Trade power is a flat number provided by only provinces and light ships, its static

Lets say Brazil trade has 40 provinces, 10 coastal provinces are owned by you and 5 coastal provinces are owned by Mali. Both you and Mali have no buildings in any province, no mercantalism bonus, no merchants, You moved your capitol to Brazil(to make math easy) and Mali's capitol isn't in this trade node.

you would generate 15 trade power and Mali would generate 7.5 trade power in that node.
Lets say the combined trade value of all provinces in that trade node is 10.5

you controls 15/22.5 = 66% - you would auto collect 66% of 10.5 = about 7
Mali controls 7.5/22.5 = 33% - Mali would automatically push 33% of 10.5 downstream(the direction of the arrows)

Now if Mali sent 10 light ships(basque) to this trade node with no admiral it would change.
You controls 15/52.5 = 28.5% You would collect 28.5% of 10.5 about 3
Mali controls 37.5/52.5 = 70.5% Mali would automatically push 70.5% of 10.5 downstream

Also I still don't get the thing about pushing power up and downstream. I can change 20% of my power in one node to another node? How many ships will that take, compared to just increase the power with them directly? I'm guessing downstreams generally mean from inland and towards the sea, and the opposite for upstream?

Downstream is going with the flow of arrows
Going upstream is against the arrows

Trade value can flow downstream

Trade power can be pushed at a vastly limited amount upstream

So if I I get this correct. If I have some provinces that trade in another country's node, I will still get some money from it, without collecting with any ships, because my provinces will give me some trade power in that node. But since the value of what I get will be low (or none existent if I don't have any provinces that trade there), because of low TP, I can either push trade value downstream(if possible) to a node I have more TP in, or if I have lots of trade power in a low value node nearby I can push 20% of that TP up to the more valuable node inland?

More or less

letting trade value flow downstream only works to your advantage if you control the next trade node as well. If not you are just helping the AI. If you control a few provinces in a remote trade node and you have spare merchants I feel its better to just collect there even if you get a small amount.

 

[sinkingmist]

One of the things that kinda bothers me is the new technology system... I think it's way to dependent on your ruler.

A common complaint, and (in my opinion) a very valid one.
You have a few possible "solutions"

1) Deal with it
2) Play republics, which gives you reliability, though the rulers are below-average at 1 4-skill and 2 1-skills, e.g. 1/4/1. You can make them better, but republics also have a lot of horrible events.
3) Play with mods. There are several mods that let you change/improve your ruler (hell, I've made TWO), or otherwise affect it (e.g. there's one that lets your kill your own ruler). My Rebalanced Buildings one also adds buildings that generate Monarch Power, which reduces reliance on the ruler to some extent. I don't know if there are any other mods that do something similar.

 

[Anthropoid]

I don't fully understand trade but here are my simple rules that seem to gradually get me up to ~25 or 30 from trade per month:

1. Try to own provinces that are major trade nodes (as France, obviously Bordeaux, also Provence and Antwerpen but those are for later)
2. Until say 1550, don't build any naval units except light ships
3. Don't send merchants to nodes that I already have some activity in. Say I own Bordeaux, I'll generally just let what I collect by owning it suffice and send that merchant elsewhere to steer trade (e.g., Seville or Genoa early game, Tunis a bit later).
4. Try to have at least 4 or 5 light ships patrolling each node in which I can patrol
5. Build the trade boosting buildings, esp in high trade value/power/blah-de-blah provinces.

See you don't even have to really understand it to screw it up real good!

A common complaint, and (in my opinion) a very valid one.
You have a few possible "solutions"

1) Deal with it
2) Play republics, which gives you reliability, though the rulers are below-average at 1 4-skill and 2 1-skills, e.g. 1/4/1. You can make them better, but republics also have a lot of horrible events.
3) Play with mods. There are several mods that let you change/improve your ruler (hell, I've made TWO), or otherwise affect it (e.g. there's one that lets your kill your own ruler). My Rebalanced Buildings one also adds buildings that generate Monarch Power, which reduces reliance on the ruler to some extent. I don't know if there are any other mods that do something similar.

Not to impugn PI's design brilliance, but . . . agree the way the rulers+tech+ideas works right now is unsatisfying and not even very realistic.

Simple solution I've found that I'm quite happy with is to play with Sinkingmists' Improve Monarch mod. At first glance one could imagine it is overpowered; but it is not. The tradeoffs in how you increase monarch power are, I think quite well balanced.

Tis true, as time goes on, by properly strategizing about monarch point improvement you can get 'ahead of the curve.' In my 1598 France game (that I got a bit bored with but was doing very well at) I was at least 15 years ahead on all techs. But then again, most AI nations were not far behind me and in some cases even AHEAD of me.

I hope PI will take a look at that mod and see if they can revise the vanilla system at least a bit. If nothing else, giving the player no control is bad strategy game design, but at worse it is just plain unfun.