Problem with "I could be a better..." events

[unmerged(4950)]

Using 103b I keep getting the "I could be a better..." events even though I don't believe I should be. Are those events fudged so that, for instance, a guy with a martial of zero might sometimes say he would be awsemome at the head of your armies?

Last night it happened again when a guy with a 13 stat saying he would be better then the 13 stat guy who was already doing the job. OK, thats possible, maybe it was a 13.2 character saying he would make a better Steward then the 13.1 stewardship guy who currently held the position.

But other times, I've had guys with Pnemonia insist they would be better at the job then my current Steward with 10+ stewardship. I don't know, does the game sometimes lose track of the fact that I already have a steward, or perhaps, does the event not take stat modifiers from illnesses and such into account.

Is anybody else seeing anything similar?

 

[sirbruce]

Yes, the courtier asks for a position according to their primary education trait. So it's quite possible for someone with a mediocre Stewardship score to ask for that position, even though they might have a higher score in, say, Spymaster.

Bruce

 

[Cat Lord]

Doesn´t education play a part in this? Or is it only keeping courtiers from complaining?

What happens is that if they can complain (i.e. their attribute is higher), they will complain quicker if they have the proper education trait (modifier change to the MTTH)...

Cat

 

[Cat Lord]

Yes, the courtier asks for a position according to their primary education trait. So it's quite possible for someone with a mediocre Stewardship score to ask for that position, even though they might have a higher score in, say, Spymaster.

True.

That's different from my previous post though.

Anyway, normally, they still need to have a higher attribute than the one in charge (apart as said, if attribute already high or proud vs modest).

Cat

 

[unmerged(4950)]

Looked for a screen print and couldn't find it. I was thinking one got saved to the game directory automatically when the PrintScreen button was pressed.

Must be thinking about a different game.

Thinking back on it, all the ones who complained had at least one great stat, just not the one for the position they were clamoring for (i.e. A 14 martial character saying he would make a great Steward).

Except for the pneumonia guy of course.

 

[Jayavarman]

F11 captures a screenshot.

 

[Ilkhold]

Now my Soymaster complains that she isn't the Steward. Stupid woman, of course I only enlist the Steward which gives me the highest income. But obviously I don't want to piss of my best Spy, neither do I want to pay her thousands of gold. Why is she complaining, when she has a prestigious court position?

 

[Cat Lord]

Now my Soymaster complains that she isn't the Steward. Stupid woman, of course I only enlist the Steward which gives me the highest income. But obviously I don't want to piss of my best Spy, neither do I want to pay her thousands of gold. Why is she complaining, when she has a prestigious court position?

Because she's probably better than your spymaster, which may be your second choice... And her education is probably that of a spymaster.

Cat

 

[Ilkhold]

It appears to me that Cat Lord misread the question. If you replace "spymaster" with "steward" in his reply it is quite correct.

Not really, as I already pointed out that my Steward grants me the highest possible income from all my courtiers, and that does mean, if I am not mistaken in the game mechanics, that his Stewardship value is higher than that of my Spymaster.

I do understand this event in a "Give me a good job or I leave" sort of sense. There is another "I want to work in a different field" event, that would be covering the need of my Spymaster. But she does not need to ask for a job, she already has one equally prestigeous.

If anyone is interested in the situation I can send you the savegame, I just stoped at this situation.

 

[Havard]

As has been mentioned in this thread, characters may ask for a job even if they are not the best for it. The character's education also momes into play...

I'd be interrest in a save: havard at crusader-kings.com

 

[Ilkhold]

As has been mentioned in this thread, characters may ask for a job even if they are not the best for it. The character's education also momes into play...

Sure, but I don't think that does make sense in this certain way, if the character already has a job. The options are too extreme for that.
I don't think that this behaviour as I observed it, is intended by the designer.
As I said, there is already another event where a character might ask for a more suiting job.

 

[unmerged(4950)]

F11 captures a screenshot.

Thanks! Works like a charm.

 

[Nikolai II]

As has been mentioned in this thread, characters may ask for a job even if they are not the best for it. The character's education also momes into play...

And if given that job she'll start complaining about getting her spymaster job back since she is best at that too - ad nauseam-

 

[Cat Lord]

And if given that job she'll start complaining about getting her spymaster job back since she is best at that too - ad nauseam-

No, it won't happen...

OK, let's have a look at the spymaster event, and specifically the trigger, and get the bottom of it.

Right:

	trigger = {
		condition = { type = not value = { type = ai } }
		condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler } }
		condition = { type = age value = 16 }
		condition = { type = not value = { type = spymaster } }

So first this event will happen only to the human player, only for non-ruler characters, only if they are 16 or above, and only if they are not spymaster.

		condition = {
			type = or 
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = not value = { type = marshal } }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = steward } }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = chancellor } }
				condition = { type = not value = { type = chaplain } }
				condition = { type = intrigue value = 1 }
				condition = {
					type = not
					value = {
						type = spymaster_csc
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 1 }
					}
				}
			}

Then either if they aren't already in a position at the court, AND they have at least 1 in intrigue AND there is currently no Spymaster at all (or the current spymaster has an intrigue score of 0).

OR

			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = or 
					condition = { type = trait value = naive_wirepuller }
					condition = { type = trait value = flamboyant_schemer }
					condition = { type = trait value = intricate_webweaver }
					condition = { type = trait value = illusive_shadow }
					}

They have a spymaster education AND

				condition = {
					type = or
					condition = {
						type = and
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 6 }
						condition = {
							type = spymaster_csc
							condition = { type = not value = { type = intrigue value = 6 } }
						}
					}
					condition = {
						type = and
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 7 }
						condition = {
							type = spymaster_csc
							condition = { type = not value = { type = intrigue value = 7 } }
						}
					}
					condition = {
						type = and
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 8 }
						condition = {
							type = or
							condition = {
								type = and
								condition = { type = trait value = proud }
								condition = {
									type = spymaster_csc
									condition = { type = trait value = modest }
								}
							}
							condition = {
								type = spymaster_csc
								condition = { type = not value = { type = intrigue value = 8 } }
							}
						}
					}
					condition = {
						type = and
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 9 }
						condition = {
							type = or
							condition = { type = trait value = proud }
							condition = {
								type = spymaster_csc
								condition = { type = not value = { type = intrigue value = 9 } }
							}
						}
					}
					condition = {
						type = and
						condition = { type = intrigue value = 10 }
						condition = {
							type = or
							condition = { type = trait value = proud }
							condition = {
								type = spymaster_csc
								condition = { type = not value = { type = intrigue value = 10 } }
							}
						}
					}
					condition = { type = intrigue value = 11 }
				}
			}
		}
	}

Either:
- their intrigue value is >= 6 and your current spymaster intrigue is <6
- their intrigue value is >= 7 and your current spymaster intrigue is <7
- their intrigue value is >= 8 and (your current spymaster intrigue is <8, OR they are proud and your current spymaster is modest)
- their intrigue value is >= 9 and (your current spymaster intrigue is <9, OR they are proud)
- their intrigue value is >= 10 and (your current spymaster intrigue is <10, OR they are proud)
- their intrigue value is >= 11

Cat

 

[Cat Lord]

Now if you can prove me that this event is firing when the conditions are not met, OR show me a logical error in this trigger, THEN there is a bug, and I am happy to correct it (if it's my trigger that is o)...

Cheers,

Cat

 

[Ilkhold]

Now if you can prove me that this event is firing when the conditions are not met, OR show me a logical error in this trigger, THEN there is a bug, and I am happy to correct it (if it's my trigger that is o)...

I understand this as the "I don't care if it makes sense or not, it works as designed so is bug free" argument.
Judging from the event code the reason for my spymaster to demand the stewards post seems to be, that she has stewardship 12, and she has the right education for that. In which case it doesn't matter at all if she is demanding the job of the godfather of all stewards himself.
Sorry, my fault, everything is running fine.

 

[Nikolai II]

I understand this as the "I don't care if it makes sense or not, it works as designed so is bug free" argument.
Judging from the event code the reason for my spymaster to demand the stewards post seems to be, that she has stewardship 12, and she has the right education for that. In which case it doesn't matter at all if she is demanding the job of the godfather of all stewards himself.
Sorry, my fault, everything is running fine.

Now you are being insulting though, regardless of what went on before.

Better to say something like "it only checks if the spymaster to be isn't already steward if there is no spymaster at all, shouldn't code to that effect be added to the other conditions as well, or preferably to the base trigger settings?"


edit: And there is imho np with she wanting a job even if she is worse at it, but it should at least be a _very_ rare occurence if she already _has_ a job (still imho)

 

[Ilkhold]

Better to say something like "it only checks if the spymaster to be isn't already steward if there is no spymaster at all, shouldn't code to that effect be added to the other conditions as well, or preferably to the base trigger settings?"

I don't think this would be better, since I don't understand the meaning of it.

edit: And there is imho np with she wanting a job even if she is worse at it, but it should at least be a _very_ rare occurence if she already _has_ a job (still imho)

Well, the problem with her already having a job, is that she risks being thrown out and loosing that job. Of course, that finally is a matter of personal taste.
The rate of occurence however is not, that is totally random. I did have these people on the jobs for years and everything was fine, then during two months or so the spymaster asks for the job of the steward twice.
I tend to agree with you, that a single occurance could be overlooked, but the second one made me stop playing.

 

[Nikolai II]

I don't think this would be better, since I don't understand the meaning of it.


Well, the problem with her already having a job, is that she risks being thrown out and loosing that job. Of course, that finally is a matter of personal taste.
The rate of occurence however is not, that is totally random. I did have these people on the jobs for years and everything was fine, then during two months or so the spymaster asks for the job of the steward twice.
I tend to agree with you, that a single occurance could be overlooked, but the second one made me stop playing.

Ah, well, eventscripting is rather hard, but in CK it can get plain silly (huuge)

But it was supposed to sum what you say in your second paragraph, that it should be either impossible for all characters that already have jobs, or at least 10 times as rare - I'm sure gracious Cat Lord could possibly script in either solution, so a proud 'superman' with effective 10 in all stats and a spymaster education could still be used as marshal (prestigious title) allowing your spymaster 14 to work uninterrupted (and not forcing you to use your other male, with martial stat 3 )
(Without costing you lots, that is)

Enough blathering, time to gather comments

 

[unmerged(6777)]

This represents a rather uncommon situation that has been debated a number of times in beta. My personal preference would be to have someone who already occupies a court office to be disinterested in any other post - regardless of stats and/or education - however there are some convincing arguments that can be made to not exclude them entirely.

I can see a couple possible alterations that might improve things:

First of all, I think that for "larger" rulers - those who have suibstantial demesne and fairly high base income - the scale of the amount being demanded is too high. In part this is an oversight at our end as we had incorrectly interpreted the exact net result of the scale values being used (this is true of any event that uses a scalable effect) so an effect of type = gold scale = 1 is presently demanding a vastly larger amount that was originally expected (i.e. intended). It's something that we should have picked up on in beta...and in fact we did. We simply didn't realise (until too late) just how great a degree this could take things out of whack. It has uet to be decided exactly how best to correct his for 1.04, the options being to rewrite the code that calculates the scale value or simply to reduce the scale values in all the events we have written. We will look at both and make a determination as to which is the better overall solution, but I think we can safely say that the amount of gold being demanded as a result of these events should be reduced rather significantly.

A second component of addressing this is to revisit the triggers and/or modifiers. As I stated above, my personal preference would be to employ trigger conditions to prevent an officer from demanding a different post, however I have ben convinced (to a degree) that this isn't necessarily a good idea. Accepting this argument (which you are free to do or not do, depending on your inclination) I would push for a set of mtth modifiers that significantly reduce the frequency of this event firing for a character who holds an office. This would satisfy the "it should be possible" camp while at the same time addressing the main source of your complaint - that it happened too often in too short a period of time.

The combination of these two should, IMO, resolve this and I will recommend that this be looked at quite closely as we conduct a thorough review of all existing events for 1.04.

* * * * *

And on a slightly different note, may I suggest to Ilkhold that he remember that this board is an international one and that many of the members, more than half of the moderators, and the entire administration staff (not to mention the developers and owners of the board) are not native English speakers. As such, when you read a post that strikes you as inflamatory or insulting it is a good idea to re-read it very carefully and to consider that the intent of the poster might not be to critisize or annoy you. Similarly, when you post something - particularly a complaint - it is a very good practice to reread your message before you post it, to ensure that your own intent is not likely to be misinterpretted. If it is (or could be) then either rewrite it to remove this possibility or add in a few emoticons to convey your intent.

 

[Nikolai II]

I would push for a set of mtth modifiers that significantly reduce the frequency of this event firing for a character who holds an office.

As I said, I can accept either solution, but that one is ok too - a tenfold MTTH for employed courtiers to get 'I wanna new job' (that it would be for them) should hopefully be enough?