Problem : The names of pop categories are not historically correct

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Narol

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According to Dev Diaries #5 :

Citizens : "These represent the patricians in Rome, and nobility in monarchies"

Freemen : "They provide manpower. The plebs of Rome is included in this group."

The problem is that Plebs had CITIZEN status in the Roman Republic, so those names don't match with the description and are historically wrong.

Solution :

The solution is simple, please just change the category name "Citizens" to something more adequate, like "Aristocrats", "Elites" or "Nobles".
 

Skuchney

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According to Dev Diaries #5 :

Citizens : "These represent the patricians in Rome, and nobility in monarchies"

Freemen : "They provide manpower. The plebs of Rome is included in this group."

The problem is that Plebs had CITIZEN status in the Roman Republic, so those names don't match with the description and are historically wrong.

Solution :

The solution is simple, please just change the category name "Citizens" to something more adequate, like "Aristocrats", "Elites" or "Nobles".

The problem is that nations actually had a lot of different systems in regards to this. A better idea might just be having the name change based on culture.
 

Narol

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Good point, using different names for different cultures would make easier to fix the problem and use the correct terms.
 

maxk94

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Even in this part of the game Paradox keep the EU:Rome legacy-stuff....but this game was bad! I For me in I:R there is still to much trash from EU:Rome.
 

Ezumiyr

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The thing is that they are not correct in any way.
Only two social systems are used for every state on the map, and they obviously don't cover the social reality in most cases. And even when the names are ok, the numbers are completely off.

In fact I have no idea why they didn't go for something more abstract and generalizable, like "nobles/freemen/slaves". It feels like someone wanted to have something immersive but had no knowledge about the ancient world at all (something that I told myself an incredible amount of time while watching the streams or reading the dev diaries).
Of course different names for different states/cultures would be even better but it's also more work and flavour/immersion is clearly not the priority.
 

Bohz

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I love how the tag on some icons is considered a "problem"... :D

Come on people, is just tags, abstraction of historical objects way way more complex than those represented in the game.
But that's the point: is a game! It's not some historical reenactment... If you would accurately represent the social and economical conditions of ancient times, it would take an enormous effort.. one you could not confine in a "videogame"

I'm afraid there will be much worse problem with this game, which looks, day after day, as a missed chance to evolve from EU:R base ground...
 

Narol

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Sorry to disagree, but I consider that important.

Lots of people and kids learn history by playing Paradox games, so it feels wrong to give them a misleading representation of what was implying the citizenship in Ancient Rome.

The strenght of the Roman Republic was coming for a good part from the fact it had an army of CITIZENS defending their patry and home, they were not just "Freemen".
 
Last edited:

Vityviktor

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100% agree. "Citizens" should be "Aristocrats", and "Freemen" maybe "Citizens" or "Plebs", but their name is not that problematic, and they could stay as they're. The Citizens' thing has annoyed me since the beginning, though.

EDIT: And the culture-based naming would be awesome.
 
Last edited:

Bohz

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Learning history from PDX games is paradoxical to say the least...

So true :)

Sorry to disagree, but I consider that important.

Lots of people and kids learn history by playing Paradox games, so it feels wrong to give them a misleading representation of what was implying the citizenship in Ancient Rome.

The strenght of the Roman Republic was coming for a good part from the fact it had an army of CITIZENS defending their patry and home, they were not just "Freemen".

Well, I don't want to be rude, but even if you consider it to be important, it doesn't mean it is..
Let me explain better

First of all, games should not teach history, they should just ignite that little spark inside little kids... That was the role that, for example, Age of Empires II had on me as a little kid: he made me start asking questions about the Ferocious Salaadin or the Emperor Friderich Barbarossa.

Secondly: this "The strenght of the Roman Republic was coming for a good part from the fact it had an army of CITIZENS defending their patry and home, they were not just "Freemen"..

Excuse me, but this is false.. I mean, is such a generic statement that is false.

Citizen: do you mean Cives Romani?
Or Cives sine suffragio (without the right to vote)?
Or, moreover, Peregrinii who, despite being "not citizen" by definition, could be granted many of the proper-citizen rights (such as tax exemptions and the right to marry under the latin laws).
Or by citizen you mean the plethora of different italian people (like those living in the city where I live today) who were not latin, were not citizen, but lived in Coloniae o Municipia which granted not citizen-rights, but a variety of legal instruments to defend themselves in front of roman institutions like a normal citizen could have?
Or what about all the allies of the Roman People, who fought not because citizen, but just for the sake of political convenience?

My point is: there was no such thing called "citizen" back in the day, if not in the way of "belonging to a specific city". But it was by no mean so critical in defining what people could or could not do, or if they would fight along side the Romans or not.
Human society, and by extension, history, is far far more complicated than a label..

I'm sorry my friend, but your sentence is way more generic and disturbing than a game calling an icon "freemen".

My two cents, no resentment :)

P.S.
Also consider that there is no general agreement among historians about the very concept of Plebs. We are still today unable to define them etnologically, sociologically or else. It's just a "topos" in roman literature used to describe different "groups of people"... commonly in opposition to some other group..
 
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