Privateers Require CB to Attack... WTF?

[DerOstkonig]

So I'll start by saying, overall I've been enjoying the changes in this patch and don't think it's all that bad.

(only played 1 game so far, and it was Aragon, so I can't speak for the situation outside europe).

But, now Austria has begun sending privateers into my home trade node, and its seriously cutting into my profit.

So I find out that I actually need to declare war on Austria and their allies to beat a few pesky pirates that I can swat down with half of my fleet...




I have to ask, what the hell is up with that? I have to start World War I to kill a few pirates? This needs to be fixed ASAP, and make pirates a separate country that everyone can have a permanent causus belli with, and give the deploying nation an optional causus belli to defend those privateers.

I mean, I don't recall any coalition wars throughout history to beat any pirates, yet I do remember nation's ability to defend their sea trade.

Please fix it immediately, thank you.

 

[BlaqkSkai]

I think the reason you have to declare war on the country sending privateers is to prevent privateers from being useless. If you could just attack the privateers then every privateer would be destroyed immediately making the entire mechanic completely useless. This is definitely one of those situations where gameplay has to trump history.

 

[Kaelic]

Don't forget that Light Ships sent trading aren't...trading. They're "protecting" trade. Now with privateers, you basically can steal trade or protect it. I like it.

Except I'm not sure why you'd ever use privateers vs stacking more trade power...

 

[DerOstkonig]

Well if they are protecting trade and letting privateers go about their way, then its not really protecting, is it?

The whole concept behind a privateer is that they are not under the flag of any nation, so they operate freely, but in turn, can be operated against freely.

To require a land war with the nation that enables privateers is perhaps the most asinine thing I have ever seen in this game, and it completely spoiled the fun I was having as a trading nation.

I have to go to war with the #3 power in europe to prevent theoretically independent raiders from encroaching on my trade?

It's not only going completely against history, but against common sense.

 

[IIWW]

I think the reason you have to declare war on the country sending privateers is to prevent privateers from being useless. If you could just attack the privateers then every privateer would be destroyed immediately making the entire mechanic completely useless. This is definitely one of those situations where gameplay has to trump history.

It wouldn't be useless, it would be too cheesy. Imagine GB gating all it's heavies with some light ships into privateer mission only to destroy France navy. They'd use mostly ships that during peacetime are useless.

 

[DominusNovus]

Well if they are protecting trade and letting privateers go about their way, then its not really protecting, is it?

Sure it is. Just not effectively.

 

[DerOstkonig]

Okay, how about this...

Privateers can only be attacked by other light ships who are on a Protect Trade mission.

I'll admit that you guys are absolutely right about it being too easy to defeat them, but I still feel that it's too heavy a limitation to require all-out war to get rid of them.

Also, I feel that that limitation is going directly against Paradox's intention to empower small non-conquering trade nations to compete with large nations.

Large nations don't need free mechanics like this to compete with trade nations, as they already have huge overpowered armies to do that.

 

[Sophotrates]

Except I'm not sure why you'd ever use privateers vs stacking more trade power...

As far as I know, trade ships in a trade node far away from yours won't do any good, you're just steering to another node where you have no benefit. However, privateers in a distant node steal money directly. It's as if there's a merchant collecting in that node. That way you can annoy Venice as Hansa and gain some profit at the same time.

 

[Tjolme]

Personally I would like the protect trade mission to allow your Light Ships to engage the privateers without being at war. While you have you declare war to use your proper combat ships (heavies and galleys) to attack them. It makes some sense historically, makes pirating a slightly dangerous undertaking and might still allow smaller nations to use their ships without being instantly crushed.

 

[DerOstkonig]

Personally I would like the protect trade mission to allow your Light Ships to engage the privateers without being at war. While you have you declare war to use your proper combat ships (heavies and galleys) to attack them. It makes some sense historically, makes pirating a slightly dangerous undertaking and might still allow smaller nations to use their ships without being instantly crushed.

Sounds like a perfect solution.

Hear, hear!!

 

[A Swell Guy]

Except I'm not sure why you'd ever use privateers vs stacking more trade power...

There are a few reasons to use privateers over protecting trade. Increasing power projection is one reason. Gaining income from a node without a merchant, when you have insufficient merchants, or when that node does not redirect to your trade node chain. When you have more light ships than what would actually boost the trade share enough to warrant their cost.

 

[IIWW]

Personally I would like the protect trade mission to allow your Light Ships to engage the privateers without being at war. While you have you declare war to use your proper combat ships (heavies and galleys) to attack them. It makes some sense historically, makes pirating a slightly dangerous undertaking and might still allow smaller nations to use their ships without being instantly crushed.

And mixed fleets? Only the light ships would engage?

 

[DerOstkonig]

Yes

 

[General Baker]

Except I'm not sure why you'd ever use privateers vs stacking more trade power...

Yeah, can someone fill us in on what exactly privateers do (with numbers/statistics), and why I should ever use the functionality over trade fleets?

 

[Sophotrates]

What about making privateers focus a specific nation? Other nations won't lose trade, and only the focused nation can attack them as if they were normal pirates. No need to declare war. Historically, it's something in the lines of English privateers encountering a Spanish fleet and saying "Oh hey Spain, don't mind us, we won't attack you, we're only after the French."

 

[DerOstkonig]

What about making privateers focus a specific nation? Other nations won't lose trade, and only the focused nation can attack them as if they were normal pirates. No need to declare war. Historically, it's something in the lines of English privateers encountering a Spanish fleet and saying "Oh hey Spain, don't mind us, we won't attack you, we're only after the French."

Well that would be a good solution if they didn't take a chunk of everyone's trade. If that were to be the route to fixing this, then you'd need to address that.

 

[WoollyMammoth]

O.k. I thought that the new system, using the op example Austria would be able to wield (fund) a reasonable powerful privateer force, focusing more on a land army for example. Whereas Aragon for example might focus on naval ideas, and fight for the trade through protecting their trade against privateers. While they, by themselves, would be no match for Austria on land, they would dominate the trade in the areas they are strong. (At some stage leading Austria to seek diplomatic relations with Aragon in order set up trade agreements in order to secure trade, while in return helping Aragon protect against Castille for example.) Something like that would seem more logical.

Maybe something similar as the mercenaries in CKII? Privateers for hire, and if nobody hires them, they can become a nuisance for all countries? (note: can not have to, could be they just disband.)

Isn't Aragon getting squashed between Castille and Austria this way? How would you defend against that?

Disclaimer: My history knowledge on this subject isn't very solid though.

 

[Konair0s]

As far as I know, trade ships in a trade node far away from yours won't do any good, you're just steering to another node where you have no benefit. However, privateers in a distant node steal money directly. It's as if there's a merchant collecting in that node. That way you can annoy Venice as Hansa and gain some profit at the same time.

Yes, but frankly I don't see much cases when it could be useful. In Single Player, at least.

 

[DerOstkonig]

O.k. I thought that the new system, using the op example Austria would be able to wield (fund) a reasonable powerful privateer force, focusing more on a land army for example. Whereas Aragon for example might focus on naval ideas, and fight for the trade through protecting their trade against privateers. While they, by themselves, would be no match for Austria on land, they would dominate the trade in the areas they are strong. (At some stage leading Austria to seek diplomatic relations with Aragon in order set up trade agreements in order to secure trade, while in return helping Aragon protect against Castille for example.) Something like that would seem more logical.

Maybe something similar as the mercenaries in CKII? Privateers for hire, and if nobody hires them, they can become a nuisance for all countries? (note: can not have to, could be they just disband.)

Isn't Aragon getting squashed between Castille and Austria this way? How would you defend against that?

Disclaimer: My history knowledge on this subject isn't very solid though.

This is exactly what's happening in my game, and if I could attack (even with only light ships on protect trade missions) the privateers, then it would be problem solved.

This mechanic as-is is completely unfair and ruins Paradox's intention of empowering trade-focused nations with respect to the OP military nations.

p.s. just for background: Austria was never heavily involved, as a nation, in naval politics up until the end of the eu4 time frame. But as emperor, they commanded Genoa to a large extent, who was the main proxy for Austria's naval power. However, in eu4, what we will see is Austria using privateers to steal Genoa's trade with Genoa having no choice but all out war with Austria to stop them. Real Austria would never do this, because it cuts down Imperial Prestige and hurts the Genoese tax contribution.

 

[Eldorian]

Yeah, can someone fill us in on what exactly privateers do (with numbers/statistics), and why I should ever use the functionality over trade fleets?

Privateers generate 1.5 times their trade power for the PIR (pirate) nation (who does nothing with it as far as I know). They send 40% of the money they collect back to you.

When should you use them over trade fleets? If there is a rich node that is downstream of you or otherwise unable to be steered toward you, that doesn't have a ton of trade power in it, then it can be worthwhile. For example, London could steal from Seville or Antwerpen, assuming those nodes were rich and you have little competition for your own trade path, say from the north sea instead of western europe.

They could also be useful if your own merchant chains are relatively uncontested (again, say as Great Britain with a Chesapeake Bay to Gulf of St. Lawerence to North Sea path), as a means of gaining income from a node you you have no merchants for (again, like Antwerpen or Seville). Also, they destroy more income than they earn you, meaning that if you're antagonistic to someone, they could be used to lower their economy as well as helping yours.