PRIVATE - The First Eutopian Democratic Congress

[Josephus I]

The First Eutopian Democratic Congress

Pers, friends, comrades.

I would like to open this first Eutopian Democratic Congress. Our chief goal is to unify the left to make us stronger and better equipped to deal with the times.

As such we need to redefine, perhaps, what our goals as a unified left party are.

Here is our manifest as it stands. I think it could use some changes. I'm open to suggestions.

To start off, it might be nice if you all acknowledge yourselves in here.

This meeting is open to all ESRP members and those specially invited.

Josephus Locke Sergei

 

[Matija]

Karlo Šafarić from SDP is here.

My first propasal would be to merge SDP in ESRP, together we will strengthen the left.

 

[Liep]

McCone signing in.

 

[Liep]

Karlo Šafarić from SDP is here.

My first propasal would be to merge SDP in ESRP, together we will strengthen the left.

Have you got any ideas on how this would work?

- John McCone

 

[Matija]

Have you got any ideas on how this would work?

- John McCone

Actually, yes I suggest a creation of a brand new party with structures from ESRP, SDP and other elements on the left side of the political spectrum.

Of course this would mean the dissaperance of the names ESRP and SDP but it would benefit both.

This new party would have a entirely new manifesto and name.

Of course the leading of the new party should be given to the chairman of the strongest/biggest party, in this case to the chairman of ESRP.

If we succede in gathering all elements from the left a new era of the Eutopian politics will begin and this time with the left on the helm.

 

[Josephus I]

I agree.

The first thing should be for all of us to contribute to a new manifesto that we can all agree upon.

Then, a new Party name.

Regarding the chairmanship, I suggest it would be a good a time as any for an election of a new party head. I'm not suggesting, I'll step down or anything ...but if anyone wants to make a bid this would be the time for it.

But first things first...let's discuss the new manifesto.

[OOC: heading for some oral surgery in an hour, so I may be out of action for a day.]

 

[Liep]

Matija. Can you start looking at the ESRP manifesto and say what you like, and what you don't.. ?

- McCone

 

[unmerged(1522)]

So, do they serve sandwiches around here?

I agree that the foundation of a new party is the best strategy for the Left (I'd suggest to simply adopt "Eutopian Democratic Congress" as its name). Broadly, I envision it as a social democratic party (something the RD/DA, due to its need to satisfy the centre-Left elements in the party, never truly was). In terms of developing a concrete party platform, I think it may be most fruitful to identify a number of central policy areas and debate those in turn, voting on elements of the party platform as we go.

- P.N.H. Schwarzerd

 

[Matija]

I agree that the foundation of a new party is the best strategy for the Left (I'd suggest to simply adopt "Eutopian Democratic Congress" as its name). Broadly, I envision it as a social democratic party (something the RD/DA, due to its need to satisfy the centre-Left elements in the party, never truly was). In terms of developing a concrete party platform, I think it may be most fruitful to identify a number of central policy areas and debate those in turn, voting on elements of the party platform as we go.

- P.N.H. Schwarzerd

I agree with mr.Schwarzerd about the way of chosing the party platform so I see no need to further analyze the ESRP platform.
We want a fresh party not recycled ESRP.

 

[Josephus I]

Josephus brings out sandwiches

My only problem with PNH's plan is that we'll end up with an endless debate on policy issues.

I think our manifest should be general not specific...a basic outline of what our party should stand for in general terms but not bogging down in specifics such as "We believe in legalized drugs. We belive in homosexual marriages." etc.

Something more along the lines of our left of centre ideology....Progressive taxation; welfare state; etc.

Josephus

 

[Josephus I]

How's this as something to work on:

A political alternative

The primary purpose of the Party is to offer a vision for Eutopia where people come first; a clear democratic socialist political alternative. We seek to govern, to be a strong force electorally, so that we can implement our agenda of economic, political and social change. We recognize that our electoral success, whether as an opposition party in Parliament, as the balance of power, or as government, provides us with the opportunity for significant and lasting change.

A force for empowerment and representation

Whether in or out of government, our purpose must be to influence the public agenda, to establish cooperation, caring, and compassion as legitimate and essential values in the development of public policy, and to win support for progressive political alternatives. A central task of the Party is to empower Eutopians to speak up for and work for social change. We seek to empower and represent all those members of our society who wish to live in a better, more cooperative and compassionate society.

A force for education

Societal change comes out of broad-based understanding and knowledge. Our task is to foster information sharing, open dialogue, and political education. These are the keys to building support for an alternative political agenda. The strength of global corporate forces makes it imperative that education be a major focus of our activity.

We will develop new educational tools and improve our means of communication with Eutopians to create support for the values we hold in common and for the alternative policies we seek to implement.

A political model

Our fundamental principles apply as much to the rebuilding of our political Party as they do to our task of creating a democratic socialist society. Our Party must be a model of the principles that we preach. Our actions must match our words. From an informed and involved membership and active riding associations we must move to thoughtful policy development, active debate and dialogue, open, inclusive and democratic decision-making and consistency between Party policies and public actions.

A broad movement

The Party is part of a greater national and international movement that seeks to challenge the dominant political agenda of market globalization and resulting environmental, social, and economic problems. We are committed to working with our partners in the labour movement, our allies in social movements, and all those who share our vision of a society based on human dignity and social justice. We offer Eutopians a renewed sense of community and a new vision of government. Internationally, our mission is to cooperate with democratic socialist organizations and other groups who share our values and our mission of building a global community.

Our challenge

Our challenge is to make Eutopia an example to the world of the nation that best combines sustainable prosperity with social, economic and political equality. We want to make this nation one which truly belongs to all its people; we seek to create a society in which all individuals have the opportunity to realize their full potential. We pledge ourselves to working with those the world over who seek to build a global society respectful of human rights and cultural diversity: a society in which every world citizen shares sustainable prosperity, democracy, equality, and peace.



Josephus

[ooc: Lifted this from Canada's New Democratic Party]

 

[unmerged(1522)]

My only problem with PNH's plan is that we'll end up with an endless debate on policy issues.

Not necessarily; we just need to impose certain limits on the debate, so we don't get bogged down. It worked reasonably well for the RD/DA congress a while ago.

I do agree that the party platform should not contain specific policy proposals, but simply outline our general position on policy issues we conisder important.

- P.N.H. Schwarzerd

 

[Dunderdon]

Hi. Sorry for being late, comrades!

I actually like the idea of merging parties, but I'd want it to be an explicit leftist party. It should not be a "wannabe-centrist" party, because as we see in Germany, socialdemocratic parties who think that attrackting "center" voters end up being conservative and fighting against trade unions and the social system.

To my mind we need two major points in our program, of course them being seperated in several issues.

I. Analysis of the world as it is, especially socioeconomic reality to determine why the world is not as we want it to be, how society and economy works and what we want to change.

II. Analysis of political work of leftist parties throughout the history to determine a course that we will go.

Personally I favour marxism but if in the discussion the majority of the party comes to an other conlusion I will of course support the party and won't fight against it, which actually should be the guideline for all our activities. democratic centralism.

Martin Zuba

 

[unmerged(1522)]

The primary purpose of the Party is to offer a vision for Eutopia where people come first; a clear democratic socialist political alternative.

I'd change "democratic socialist" to "social democratic" - or to "social and democratic," if we want to avoid squabbles over whether the new party would best be described as "democratic socialist" or "social democratic."

We seek to govern, to be a strong force electorally, so that we can implement our agenda of economic, political and social change. We recognize that our electoral success, whether as an opposition party in Parliament, as the balance of power, or as government, provides us with the opportunity for significant and lasting change.

Seems fine. If I may make some truly minor suggestions, I'd delete the "our" before electoral success, as well as the "in Parliament," and insert a "the" in front of "government."

A force for empowerment and representation

I'd prefer to change that to "social justice and solidarity."

Whether in or out of government, our purpose must be to influence the public agenda, to establish cooperation, caring, and compassion as legitimate and essential values in the development of public policy, and to win support for progressive political alternatives.

Just add "social justice" and replace "compassion" with "solidarity," and I'll be happy.

A central task of the Party is to empower Eutopians to speak up for and work for social change. We seek to empower and represent all those members of our society who wish to live in a better, more cooperative and compassionate society.

I'd add in "juster" after "better,", but other than that, it sounds good.

A force for education

I'd delete the sub-title, because it could be perceived (mistakenly or not) as emphasizing one policy field (education) at the expense of others.

Societal change comes out of broad-based understanding and knowledge. Our task is to foster information sharing, open dialogue, and political education. These are the keys to building support for an alternative political agenda.

Sounds good.

The strength of global corporate forces makes it imperative that education be a major focus of our activity.

We will develop new educational tools and improve our means of communication with Eutopians to create support for the values we hold in common and for the alternative policies we seek to implement.

Id delete those passages, again to avoid the impression that we are focusing attention on one particular policy field.

A political model

Our fundamental principles apply as much to the rebuilding of our political Party as they do to our task of creating a democratic socialist society.

I still think "social and democratic society" would be preferable. And "a political model" could perhaps be changed to "the role of the party."

Our Party must be a model of the principles that we preach. Our actions must match our words. From an informed and involved membership and active riding associations we must move to thoughtful policy development, active debate and dialogue, open, inclusive and democratic decision-making and consistency between Party policies and public actions.

I'd replace "riding" with "local party." [OOC: Since it uses PR with a single nation-wide district, Eutopia has no ridings. ]

A broad movement

Unnecessary, could be deleted.

The Party is part of a greater national and international movement that seeks to challenge the dominant political agenda of market globalization and resulting environmental, social, and economic problems. We are committed to working with our partners in the labour movement, our allies in social movements, and all those who share our vision of a society based on human dignity and social justice. We offer Eutopians a renewed sense of community and a new vision of government. Internationally, our mission is to cooperate with democratic socialist organizations and other groups who share our values and our mission of building a global community.

Sounds good, but once again, I'd replace "democratic socialist."

Our challenge

Our challenge is to make Eutopia an example to the world of the nation that best combines sustainable prosperity with social, economic and political equality. We want to make this nation one which truly belongs to all its people; we seek to create a society in which all individuals have the opportunity to realize their full potential. We pledge ourselves to working with those the world over who seek to build a global society respectful of human rights and cultural diversity: a society in which every world citizen shares sustainable prosperity, democracy, equality, and peace.

Sounds good to me.

Two overall comments:

(1) I think the above is fine as a statement of general principles, but if others (and ourselves) are to have a clear idea of what the a party stands for, it needs to be supplemented by something a bit more concrete. Otherwise, we run the risk of agreeing to all these pleasantries, but falling apart as a aprty once the first real issue hits.

(2) I'd like to see some sort of recognition of Eutopia's multinational and multicultural heritage in our principles.

- P.N.H. Schwarzerd

[ooc: Lifted this from Canada's New Democratic Party]

[OOC: Should be okay as long as the final platform is sufficiently different from that of a RL party.]

 

[Dunderdon]

Just a few comments on the party program posted by Josephus.

It actually says nothing, except that we want the world to be nice and that education is important.

I find it almost funny how often it is written that the party wants change and to be an alternative but never says what it wants to change and how it wants to change:

to implement our agenda of economic, political and social change

which is?

to offer a vision for Eutopia where people come first

significant and lasting change

for progressive political alternatives

Most interesting are those parts:

empower Eutopians to speak up for and work for social change

how? My answer would be a workers republic of councils, I doubt that is what is meant here. Without clarification, this could also mean freedom of speech.

make this nation one which truly belongs to all its people; we seek to create a society in which all individuals have the opportunity to realize their full potential.

What is that supposed to mean? To my mind, the only way to reach this is the abolishment of private owned means of production.

challenge the dominant political agenda of market globalization and resulting environmental, social, and economic problems.

and try to replace with what? and how? (hard to know if you don't think of why we have social and economic problems)

a society in which every world citizen shares sustainable prosperity, democracy, equality, and peace.

And finally this is why it is so important to analyse our current society and economy. For capitalism it will always be impossible to provide each of prosperity, democracy, equality and peace to every world citizen in the long run.

It is not difficult to write in the program that we want a world where everybody can be happy. It is also not very difficult to write that maybe globalisation is wrong. It is difficult to write exactly how such a society can be built up.

Martin Zuba

 

[Josephus I]

Per Zuba:

Some comments.

I agree generally with your argument that "it says nothing." [OOC: that's real life politics for you]

That's why I said, "how's this to start?"

It's something to start with. As PNH said, we need to add some "for instances" and subtract some of the education passages.

I think, Zuba, that we're all in favour of not having any "centrism" in our ideology. I think all our members are committed to "Leftist" ideology.

I think, though, that there will be opposition to any form of "Marxism". Note how PHN was thrown off by the term "Socialist" in "Democratic Socialist".

I think, most of us are in agreement that our ideology must ultimately accept the "free market". And what we try to do to "make this world a safer, happier place," is to limit the excess of capitalism and the free market.

So, both PNH and Zuba mention the need for some specifics.

I offer this. Zuba, maybe you can answer your own questions above with something we can agree on.

PNH can you provide some specific items that we can work into the party program.

Josephus

 

[unmerged(1522)]

Note how PHN was thrown off by the term "Socialist" in "Democratic Socialist".

Just to avoid misunderstandings: I'd have no personal difficulties with leaving democratic socialism in there, as I consider myself a liberal socialist. Rather, my concern is of a strategic nature and two-fold:

- first, party cohesion: not all members of the new party will be socialists, and identifying democratic socialism as the basis of the new party may make it difficult for social democrats to support us. By the same token, calling the new party "social demoratic" may not sit well with the socialists. Hence my suggestion to sidestep the issue and use the term "social and democratic" instead. I'm aware that this may strike some as a wishy-washy term - because frankly, that's what it's intended to be.

- second, electoral appeal: the very term "socialism" has been villified in Eutopian politics as well as elsewhere, so that it now carries negative connotations for a great number of people. From a strategic standpoint, I'd rather "sell" our principles under a different label than to have people be turned off by the label itself.

- P.N.H. Schwarzerd

 

[Dunderdon]

We seem to have a different opinion on that. I'd prefer a term that might scare off some people to one that is wishy-washy.

Firstly, I believe that democratic socialist may scare off people, but only those who are not in favour of social and democratic too.

And secondly, I believe that we also have to sell our term. By making good politics, we will convince that democratic socialism is not bad. If we use "social and democratic" but go the same way as before, rightist parties have the chance to call us "socialist" and give us a bad touch with it, and are even right, because our policy is actually democratic socialist (i think).

To you, Josephus from the ESRP

The economy of nowadays has problems that don't come from outer conditions such as oil-price shocks but from the elementary conditions of capitalism itself. It is the orivate ownership of means of production that lead to the fact that:

1. every company has to lower wages to make profit because of the pressure of the big companies who actually do so
2. every company will suffer if the wages are low, because then purchasing power is low.

More and more unequal distribution of wealth leads to the situation that availible production capacities in private means of production can't be used economically efficient anymore. (Just think of the riots that the capitalists started when Venezuela passed a law that outlaws having huge parts of land that are not used agriculturally while the population was starving)

But even the state has problems with the economical situation. It is getting more and more impossible to tax companies because of "tax-dumping", which is a result of the companies try to save (or improve) profits that they lose because of low purchasing power by migrating to low-wage countries and low-tax countries.

The lost corporate tax income makes it impossible for governments all over the world to maintain a social system. Corporations stop contributing to the society. In all advanced capitalist countries the pension system, the healthcare system, the unemployment subsidies, etc. are "reformed" (cut).

The lot of the people suffer from that, while the few corporate owners or stock holders currently have profits which are dangered by their own politics.

So far about the analysis of the current situation.

Actually I would agree to a free market society with a large state-owned sector that grants us influence to the economy, (because we can force all companies to raise wages if competition effect kicks in after we raise them), but in nowadays world it won't be easy to have such a company make profit anymore, and planned economy and radical redistribution of wealth and income seems to be the only solution for me in the long run.

So, Josephus, you might not like this answer, but I believe that it is impossible nowadays to limit the bad effects of capitalism. We can't return to the economic situation of the 60ies, 70ies, or 80ies because back then economic growth was high, unemployment was low and capital mobility was low and our situation is vice-versa in all those aspects. The balance of power favours the capital interests and this is why any attempts to improve the life for our citizen in capitalist world will mean higher budget deficit and no real improvements.

But if you want to try it out...
then I would suggest nationalizing about 33% of the economy to grant us enough influence to shape the economy as we want it to be.
I would suggest lowering worktime at same wages and raising corporation taxes, and from that money raising public investments and public consumption.
I would open a fonds which is to buy all companies that declare bankrupt but for which there is hope that they will recover.
And I would strenghen the trade unions...

however, i think this would not work out.

Martin Zuba

 

[Matija]

How's this as something to work on:

A political alternative

The primary purpose of the Party is to offer a vision for Eutopia where people come first; a clear democratic socialist political alternative. We seek to govern, to be a strong force electorally, so that we can implement our agenda of economic, political and social change. We recognize that our electoral success, whether as an opposition party in Parliament, as the balance of power, or as government, provides us with the opportunity for significant and lasting change.

A force for empowerment and representation

Whether in or out of government, our purpose must be to influence the public agenda, to establish cooperation, caring, and compassion as legitimate and essential values in the development of public policy, and to win support for progressive political alternatives. A central task of the Party is to empower Eutopians to speak up for and work for social change. We seek to empower and represent all those members of our society who wish to live in a better, more cooperative and compassionate society.

A force for education

Societal change comes out of broad-based understanding and knowledge. Our task is to foster information sharing, open dialogue, and political education. These are the keys to building support for an alternative political agenda. The strength of global corporate forces makes it imperative that education be a major focus of our activity.

We will develop new educational tools and improve our means of communication with Eutopians to create support for the values we hold in common and for the alternative policies we seek to implement.

A political model

Our fundamental principles apply as much to the rebuilding of our political Party as they do to our task of creating a democratic socialist society. Our Party must be a model of the principles that we preach. Our actions must match our words. From an informed and involved membership and active riding associations we must move to thoughtful policy development, active debate and dialogue, open, inclusive and democratic decision-making and consistency between Party policies and public actions.

A broad movement

The Party is part of a greater national and international movement that seeks to challenge the dominant political agenda of market globalization and resulting environmental, social, and economic problems. We are committed to working with our partners in the labour movement, our allies in social movements, and all those who share our vision of a society based on human dignity and social justice. We offer Eutopians a renewed sense of community and a new vision of government. Internationally, our mission is to cooperate with democratic socialist organizations and other groups who share our values and our mission of building a global community.

Our challenge

Our challenge is to make Eutopia an example to the world of the nation that best combines sustainable prosperity with social, economic and political equality. We want to make this nation one which truly belongs to all its people; we seek to create a society in which all individuals have the opportunity to realize their full potential. We pledge ourselves to working with those the world over who seek to build a global society respectful of human rights and cultural diversity: a society in which every world citizen shares sustainable prosperity, democracy, equality, and peace.



Josephus

[ooc: Lifted this from Canada's New Democratic Party]

I like it, also I would like to support the changes proposed by mr.Schwarzerd.

I belive that "social democratic" is the term that we should use in our manifesto though I'm not going to fight it if most of us agree on democratic socialists.

 

[Josephus I]

Personally I'm not getting into too much of a muddle over social and democratic. I have stated elsewhere that the term "socialist" has negative underpinnings. We can be "socialist" without using the term.

Zuba's arguments are well founded, that we will still be labelled as "socialists" by our ideology. That's fine with me. Face it, Zuba's a Marxist, I'm a Leninist, PNH is a "liberal socialist".

It was said that this new party shouldn't be a "new version of the ESRP" and I agree, but neither should it be a "new version of the DA/RD" either.

So....I'm willing to make the changes PNH stated to our manifest, clean up the jargon, but I need PNH or Zuba or both, to add a few "specifcs" that we can agree on.

Zuba's talk about being "anti-privatization" for example is perfect. I also like what we did with Maritcon and sell a national enterprise to the workers.

How about Eutopian Social and Democratic Party for a name (ESDP)

Josephus