PRIVATE - Term Seven Cabinet

[Estonianzulu]

Mr. President, they already have control over their education (and language for that matter) occording to the Constitution.

I do not see why it is inequitable. The W.E.T. will be smaller, and therefore get less revenue, but also have less spending, in the end it will even out. I would oppose combining the two, they are unrelated. Otherwise I would worry that neither would pass.

Also, I want to finish up here, making sure this is what they want, before we act. (We also need to determine a name for the Province, as the W.E.T. would not work)

 

[Erc]

2. Taxing authority. Obviously provinces that opt for local control will not be charged the same tax rate as those that stay with the centralized control. Details need to be worked out (for instance can they impose any sort of tax or only certain ones?). Some have suggested giving them some sort of cap. I would personally be in favor of unlimited rights figuring that the ability of people to move/vote would keep provinces in-check. How much authority they have though is something we should use as bargaining chips.

Governments, by their very nature, don't act like corporations. The base motivation for the usual politician is power for himself, not money for the state he is serving. Occasionally, one can mean the other (better economy = better chance of being reelected), but the link certainly isn't as strong as in a corporation. In fact, since taxing more means having more power, even though there might be some competition, tax levels in all provinces would tend to increase (assuming full federalization). If full federalization is not in place then, yes, there is an element--but the consequences of such an action would just further kill the already dead Southern economy. We need to put strict caps in place in order to prevent rabid increases in taxation (beyond the 49% median tax rate already in place [which doesn't even begin to include fees for Medicure/Omnicare]). Personally, I'd rather see no money in the palms of local politicians, but they need to have a bit at least. But very, very little. (More of course depending on what funding responsibilities are given them).

3. If places are going to have control over schools they need to pay for them. Right now the Federal Government pays for the autonimously administered Latin Schools. This is not something that will continue going forward. This is a concession the Latins will need to make since the work of the MECT is important and I would like to give all of our provinces an incentive to stay federalized here. I see this being an issue that would be question 1b on the referendum, which I'll return to in a second.

As a former teacher myself (albeit in postsecondary education), I must give my strongest recommendation against decentralization of educational funding, as it tends to create gross educational inequalities--thus defeating much of the purpose of education in the first place. A province--Saint-Espirit, most likely--may have a tax revolt and fund their schools much less that St. Brendan's, for example. If some level of decentralization is deemed necessary, then I must ask that a provision is included in the bill barring further devolution of funding (all funding must stay with the province as opposed to towns, etc.)--and perhaps a minimum amount of spending per student in the province as a whole (in comparison to national average or some other stat)

The Latins also want the right not to teach English in their schools. Again this is something that they better give a hell of a lot to get. Afterall, everyone in this room had to learn a Latin language as part of their schooling. Why should they be special?

They do have an arguable point...Latins must take English, while Anglos must to take either French or Spanish...but it's a weak point. We may want to consider making one year of introductory French/Spanish (whichever one isn't the primary "foreign language") mandatory in the North...but I wouldn't advise it.

 

[unmerged(4021)]

A few comments in response Professor:

While many politicians might indeed be concerned about power the fact that this cabinet, including the current and last presidents and Vice Presidents are debating how much power to give away shows that politicans can do what is right as well.

Part of giving more power to the provinces means they might make decisions we don't like. The people of these provinces have shown they are willing to take extreme measures to achieve their ends. If they are taxed unreasonably then I am quite confident that there will be repercussions.
Like I said I see it more as a bargaining chip then something we're offering right off the bat.

As for the schools right now we have the worst of all worlds. They basically have carte blanch in deciding what to teach while everybody pays for it. I actually strongly support the centralization of schools which is why I want to make it a seperate issue and give the provinces an incentive to stay federalized here even if they choose to assert more control in other areas. The idea that such a large amount of the budget, 11 billion dollars, is outside of the control of the federal government is not good in my opinion. The idea here is for more, not less, centralization of the schools.

 

[The_Hawk]

*The red phone rings again.*

"Per President? Ministers? Tilly here. Look, this business with von Maazarin is even more out of hand. We just uncovered a truckload of military-grade weapons, assault rifles and anti-aircraft rocket launchers. And it sounds like this guy was trying to conceal a body at the airport."

"Per President, I have to ask you to mobilize the army. If it requires NA authorization, so be it. Perhaps we can have an immediate vote due to the urgency. But I honestly don't know if we can handle this, if von Maazarin has fortified this warehouse and all of his guys are equipped with military stuff. An AK round can punch straight through a Kevlar jacket. I can't send SWAT in if they're going to get massacred."

"What? The strikers? Oh, I don't know. The civil rights advocate in me understands that they have issues, but honestly, these seem to be relatively minor points, not the sort of thing that justifies a mass strike. I suggest we give a bit, but not so much that other provinces think striking sounds good, too. And if you want to drag negotiations out until the end of the term, Josephus, I'd be all for it. It plays a lot better if they have to sweat before we reach an agreement -- if it appears we're caving, more widespread strikes are bound to take hold."

 

[unmerged(24249)]

President why won't you break the strike? All you have to do is to call emergency state!



And I wonder what von maazarin wanted to do with those weapons, whatever it is I recomend to have army nearby just in case.

 

[unmerged(24249)]

Gentleman, today mr. Tulp gave me this document, you may be interested.

Operation “Bulldozer”



This plan is devised to break the current strike in the Latin provinces through lawfull means.

First phase, all the personell not allowed to strike under law (personell working in the Health, public transport, postal and educational sector) will be ordered back to work or will face trial.

Second phase: the President declares the military-industrial sector essential and orders workers in that sector back to work. People who don’t obey will face trial.

Third phase: unemployed people will do the jobs of those who strike, they will be compensated a bit. People who refuse will be cut on benefits.

Within 3 weeks after the Third phase the strike will probably be broken. That is if the strikers don’t get payed which I assume they aren’t. I also think it would be wise if the police would be tasked with protecting the non-strikers.



Lt. Commander Henry Jan Tulp.

 

[unmerged(4021)]

The Eutopian Military will not be used for domestic law enforcement. I will, however, issue the following order:

By Order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces and President of Eutopia, the Eutopian Military is hereby ordered to supply weapons and munitions to members of MILE Swat teams for the situation with Mr. von Maazarin. Minister Hawkton Tilly will desiginate those authorized to recieve the equipment. Any munitions used will be replaced out of MILE funds.

/s/Dr. Jonathan Glasser
President of Eutopia
Commander-in-Chief of the Eutopian Armed Forces

 

[unmerged(4021)]

I wish the commander the best of luck in implementing his plan when he becomes President.

I will be drafting legislation for Federalization later today. If the strikers don't return to work, or otherwise negiotiate in bad faith, you are to call off talks Josephus. We will simply introduce the legislation that we like. They will claim to be yet again ignored, but my patience in humoring the strikers has run out.

 

[Josephus I]

Right. I've communicated with the strikers your plan. Waiting to hear back. I was rather cordial with them this time around.

Josephus

 

[unmerged(4021)]

I have a meeting to run to but I have finished the first three parts of the bill I would like to propose for federalization. I want to try and form a bill we can all live with but we must also move quickly. So please make your opinions known here and do so ASAP, as I would like to have something concrete in two days. I will explain my reasoning behind a few of the provisions below.

Federal Reorganization for the Enhancement of Eutopia (FREE) Amendment

Recognizing the diverse needs of Eutopia, and also recognizing that there are advantages to both centralized and local control, Eutopia shall adopt a hybrid federalized/centralized system.

Part I. Structure

All areas in Eutopia shall be part of a Territory, Province, or State.

A. Territories
Territories are administrative units; they are administered directly by the MILE.

B. Provinces
Provinces are purely administrative units and thus have no legislative powers. Provinces are headed by a Director-General (chief of administration) freely appointed and dismissed by the President. A council elected by citizens of the province will advise the Director-General. Ultimate authority for Provinces is vested with the Federal Government.

C. States
States are invested with the powers specified in Part II. States are headed by a Governor elected by the citizens of the state. Legislative authority shall reside with an Assembly whose member shall be elected by the citizens of the state. Any power not specified in Part II shall be assumed to reside with the Federal Government. States shall be taxed at a lower rate than provinces and territories. The reduction in rate for taxes shall reflect a refund for services under State control. This reduction in rate shall be determined by the Eutopia Central Bank.

Part II. Power of the States

A. Revenue
All states shall have the power to raise revenue through taxation. They shall have the right to levy Income and Sales taxes. The National Assembly may grant authority for other methods of taxation by a 3/5 vote. The National Assembly may by a majority vote cap the rate that states shall be allowed to tax. This cap shall not be lower than 2% for the Sales Tax and 5% for the Income tax. States shall have discretion of the expenditure of revenues.

B. Law Enforcement and the Courts
Primary responsibility for Law Enforcement and the Courts shall reside with the states. The Ministry of Immigration and Law Enforcement (MILE) may claim jurisdiction over cases that it deems to be of National Importance. All law enforcement officers and prosecutors shall cooperate with the MILE when requested by the MILE. The MILE shall assist state law enforcement officers and prosecutors when requested. The High Court shall continue to be the highest court in Eutopia.

C. Agriculture
Any agriculture subsidies to states shall be administered by the states. The Federal Government may allocate agricultural subsidies as it wishes, but any allocations shall not penalize states for their independent status.

D. Education
Preschool through High School Education shall be the responsibility only of the states which accept such responsibility (see Part III). States that accept responsibility for education shall receive no funding from the Federal Government for Education. The Ministry of Education, Culture, and Technology (MECT) shall be allowed to impose regulations that are in the national interest on states with responsibility for Education.

E. Other powers
States may pass additional laws regulating the areas of Domestic Transport, Public Works, Public Utilities and Energy, Environment and Labor provided that they meet minimums established by the Federal Government and are not in contradiction of any regulations by the Federal Government. The National Assembly may devolve other powers to the state by a 13/20 vote and may choose to revoke other powers devolved by a majority vote.

Part III. Conversion of Provinces and States

A. Referendum

In the first national election following the passage of this Amendment all provinces shall hold a referendum asking two questions. Question number one shall be “Should this province become a state?”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the province will be converted into a state. Question number two shall be “If this province becomes a state should accept responsibility for the funding and implementation of Pre-School through High School Education?” Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” AND the province has chosen to become a state, the state will assume responsibility for education. The President and Provincial Director, or a majority of the National Assembly, may choose to place the referendum questions on the ballot in a subsequent election should a province choose to remain a province.

B. Constitutional Convention

Any province that chooses to become a state shall hold a Constitutional Convention. This convention shall consist of five people chosen by the Director-General of the province, any mayors of cities larger than 100,000 people and 5 representatives chosen by a vote of all mayors of the province. The Director-General of the province shall chair the convention. The Constitution must specify the composition and powers of the Legislative and Executive Branches and the method in which the Sections A-D of Part II will be administered. The convention must agree upon a Constitution by a ¾ vote. The convention will have up to one year to agree upon a Constitution. The National Assembly shall have one month to nullify, by a 13/20 vote, any State Constitution that is not in compliance with this Amendment. Upon agreeing to a Constitution an immediate election will be held to elect appropriate officials. Until the completion of the election for officials, the area will continue to act as a province.

C. Conversion of a State into a Province
The Legislative branch may by a majority vote hold a referendum on a state returning to a province. The question will be asked “Should this state become a province?”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the state will be converted into a province.

Part IV. Western Eutopian Territories

A. Conversion into a Province
In the first national election after the passage of this Amendment, the citizens of the Western Eutopian Territories (WET) shall vote on a referendum asking “Should the Western Eutopia Territories become a province”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the territory will be converted into a province. Should the WET decline to become a province the President and MILE may agree to hold a referendum again in the future.

 

[unmerged(24249)]

I am not sure if states should be given right to move with taxes, this could be a problem when we'll plan budget, or can even threaten budget that already works.

 

[unmerged(4021)]

Let me go throw and break down some of the parts of FREE. I found it nice that we could such an important bill a snappy acronym.

Part I. Structure

All areas in Eutopia shall be part of a Territory, Province, or State.

A. Territories
Territories are administrative units; they are administered directly by the MILE.

B. Provinces
Provinces are purely administrative units and thus have no legislative powers. Provinces are headed by a Director-General (chief of administration) freely appointed and dismissed by the President. A council elected by citizens of the province will advise the Director-General. Ultimate authority for Provinces is vested with the Federal Government.

This is taken basically from the current constitution. I added the advisory council and made sure that it was clear that ultimate authority for provinces remains with the Federal Government. The council just seemed like a good idea for helping make sure the Director-General stays in touch with the people.

C. States
States are invested with the powers specified in Part II. States are headed by a Governor elected by the citizens of the state. Legislative authority shall reside with an Assembly whose member shall be elected by the citizens of the state. Any power not specified in Part II shall be assumed to reside with the Federal Government. States shall be taxed at a lower rate than provinces and territories. The reduction in rate for taxes shall reflect a refund for services under State control. This reduction in rate shall be determined by the Eutopia Central Bank.

I purposefully left the organization of the Legislature and Executive vague. This way the states can craft a solution that works for them. An over riding theme of this bill is to allow states to craft solutions that work for them. The bit about taxes here is this: for things, such as Law Enforcement, that the states will control and fund they won’t have to pay for services they aren’t receiving. By having the ECB decide what this will be I was trying to make it a purely financial, and thus non-partisan, decision.

Part II. Power of the States

A. Revenue
All states shall have the power to raise revenue through taxation. They shall have the right to levy Income and Sales taxes. The National Assembly may grant authority for other methods of taxation by a 3/5 vote. The National Assembly may by a majority vote cap the rate that states shall be allowed to tax. This cap shall not be lower than 2% for the Sales Tax and 5% for the Income tax. States shall have discretion of the expenditure of revenues.

I know several of you have a lot of concern about taxes. Mike you’ve even brought the issue up already. It is a bit of a joke to say that something is an autonomous government body if it doesn’t even have the power of the purse. However, because I do respect what those of you have been saying about Caps, I figured this provision was a nice compromise. In this way the National Assembly may choose to cap how much the states charge their residences, but the states can’t be choked of all revenue. For the record I am against a sales tax, and am glad we don’t have such a tax. However, some do find it better than an income tax and so I thought that the option should at least be left open. Again the idea being states can find the solutions that work best for them. I hope that this compromise is something everyone can get behind, even if it is with some reservation.

B. Law Enforcement and the Courts
Primary responsibility for Law Enforcement and the Courts shall reside with the states. The Ministry of Immigration and Law Enforcement (MILE) may claim jurisdiction over cases that it deems to be of National Importance. All law enforcement officers and prosecutors shall cooperate with the MILE when requested by the MILE. The MILE shall assist state law enforcement officers and prosecutors when requested. The High Court shall continue to be the highest court in Eutopia.

Here the MILE can choose to involve itself wherever needed while still letting states handle the overall responsibilities. I thought it only fair that local law enforcement be allowed to access resources, such as advanced forensic or criminal databases, that the MILE might have.

C. Agriculture
Any agriculture subsidies to states shall be administered by the states. The Federal Government may allocate agricultural subsidies as it wishes, but any allocations shall not penalize states for their independent status.

Before the strike discussions began I hadn’t thought of this being an issue at all. This is the one place where I don’t think it’s necessary for the states to pay for what they want to be in-charge of handling. The trade off being that the amount the receive is still determined by the Federal Government.

D. Education
Preschool through High School Education shall be the responsibility only of the states which accept such responsibility (see Part III). States that accept responsibility for education shall receive no funding from the Federal Government for Education. The Ministry of Education, Culture, and Technology (MECT) shall be allowed to impose regulations that are in the national interest on states with responsibility for Education.

As I stated before Education, I think, should remain centralized. But since the Latins already have autonomy here it seems like it must at least be an option for FREE. And also as I have stated before I think allowing local autonomy, without making them pay for it, is counter productive.

The provision about MECT was written to give it less authority than MILE above, while still making sure MECT could, for instance, require English and Spanish/French to be taught. Having everyone speak a common language is in the national interest. Saying schools must be in session 8 hours a day isn’t really.

E. Other powers
States may pass additional laws regulating the areas of Domestic Transport, Public Works, Public Utilities and Energy, Environment and Labor provided that they meet minimums established by the Federal Government and are not in contradiction of any regulations by the Federal Government. The National Assembly may devolve other powers to the state by a 13/20 vote and may choose to revoke other powers devolved by a majority vote.

Being a free market liberal I like the idea of creating competition, even with-in regulation. The idea was to also make it possible, without another amendment, to give more power to the states in the future if it should seem like the right thing to do.

Part III. Conversion of Provinces and States

A. Referendum

In the first national election following the passage of this Amendment all provinces shall hold a referendum asking two questions. Question number one shall be “Should this province become a state?”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the province will be converted into a state. Question number two shall be “If this province becomes a state should accept responsibility for the funding and implementation of Pre-School through High School Education?” Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” AND the province has chosen to become a state, the state will assume responsibility for education. The President and Provincial Director, or a majority of the National Assembly, may choose to place the referendum questions on the ballot in a subsequent election should a province choose to remain a province.

The way this was setup, with three choices, is designed to keep provinces that might have some lukewarm support with centralized control. In places, such as the striking territories, that have strong support for local control, local control should still pass easily.

B. Constitutional Convention

Any province that chooses to become a state shall hold a Constitutional Convention. This convention shall consist of five people chosen by the Director-General of the province, any mayors of cities larger than 100,000 people and 5 representatives chosen by a vote of all mayors of the province. The Director-General of the province shall chair the convention. The Constitution must specify the composition and powers of the Legislative and Executive Branches and the method in which the Sections A-D of Part II will be administered. The convention must agree upon a Constitution by a ¾ vote. The convention will have up to one year to agree upon a Constitution. The National Assembly shall have one month to nullify, by a 13/20 vote, any State Constitution that is not in compliance with this Amendment. Upon agreeing to a Constitution an immediate election will be held to elect appropriate officials. Until the completion of the election for officials, the area will continue to act as a province.

Coming up with who would write the Constitution was a challenge. I think this allows for expedient conventions while still ensuring that a variety of viewpoints will be heard. I thought it very important to give the NA a check should some state constitution contain something that was blatantly not allowed. Checks and balances can be a good thing.

C. Conversion of a State into a Province
The Legislative branch may by a majority vote hold a referendum on a state returning to a province. The question will be asked “Should this state become a province?”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the state will be converted into a province.

I don’t imagine this provision will ever get used but I thought it intellectually correct to have.

Part IV. Western Eutopian Territories

A. Conversion into a Province
In the first national election after the passage of this Amendment, the citizens of the Western Eutopian Territories (WET) shall vote on a referendum asking “Should the Western Eutopia Territories become a province”. Voters shall be given the choice of “Yes”, “No”, and “No Opinion”. If fifty percent plus one vote choose “Yes” the territory will be converted into a province. Should the WET decline to become a province the President and MILE may agree to hold a referendum again in the future.

This paves the way for the change in WET status should they desire it, without at the same time making them a state. This seemed like the right way for them to make the transition.

Please ask questions and make comments. Again its important that there be some agreement about this bill, especially if it is going to have a chance in the NA.

 

[unmerged(24249)]

I do not like idea of autonomous states, but if we are supposed to give them autonomy, I think this is quite a good proposal.

 

[unmerged(4021)]

I don't like the concept in many ways myself and plan on campaigning vigorously for provinces to not choose statehood should this Amendment pass.

I do, however, feel strongly that based on the needs of the nation giving the option to the provinces is best for the continued functioning of the nation.

 

[unmerged(24249)]

I don't think any province will not want to become state, if you do not agree with it yourself, why are we doing this?

 

[unmerged(4021)]

Because I think that the Latins have legitimate grievences. Because I think if we're going to offer it to the Latins we need to offer it to everyone. If the prinicpal of federalism is right for the Latins, which I think it is, then it seems wrong to deny it to the rest of the country. And I honestly believe in crafting this that a majority of the provinces will choose not to become states. Making this about federalism, rather than impetuous striking workers, also helps counter the idea that we're caving to the workers. Federalism makes me uneasy, but I'm not sure it's a bad idea as there are a lot of good points to it.

-Dr. Jonathan Glasser

 

[Estonianzulu]

Mr. President, I have two points.

Education: If a state chooses not to recieve national funding for education, will it still have to contribute to the tax revenue nationally which is used for education?

I also ask that you please remove the final section. There are certain things which need to be done in the W.E.T. before it becomes a province, and it also does not relate to the rest of the bill. It is a rider much like what is seen in the USA, which is a bad precedent to set in bills (infact many arguments against earlier bills relied on our disdain for riders)

 

[unmerged(4021)]

I will gladly remove that part. You had seemed much more ready to move forward with it earlier and it seemed like a bill talking about changing provinces into states wasn't far removed from changing a territory into a province.

As for education the idea is that they would pay in for Higher Ed, which would continue to be MECT controlled, but that they would not pay in for local ed.

 

[unmerged(24249)]

I don't understand it, they would pay something they don't control? That has no point, I think that if they pay something they should also control, but I agree that at least one part of educational system must be held by central goverment.

 

[unmerged(4021)]

The state government isn't being charged for it, the citizens are. Citizens in all of Eutopia, under this bill, will pay for Higher Education. Citizens in states that choose autonomy will have a lower tax rate, and citizens in states that choose autonomy and self-control of education, through grade 12, with have a lower tax rate yet.