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Estonianzulu

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I would be worried though. It could evolve into what exists in the United States, where a person pays a tax which goes to those who need it now, and is not saved for that person.

This means that if the unemployment were to ever strike nationally, this fund would drain immediatly.
 

The_Hawk

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Estonianzulu said:
This means that if the unemployment were to ever strike nationally, this fund would drain immediatly.

My understanding was that that was currently the case... and that it's unlikely that unemployment will ever be much higher than it currently is (unless we do our jobs extremely poorly.) But then, I'm no economist...
 

Josephus I

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Estonianzulu said:
I would be worried though. It could evolve into what exists in the United States, where a person pays a tax which goes to those who need it now, and is not saved for that person.

This means that if the unemployment were to ever strike nationally, this fund would drain immediatly.

As I mentioned, during periods of high unemployment, the fund would have to be topped off from general revenues...but mostly, in regular times, the fund should take care of itself and at times create a surplus.

Under the current system, using the worse case scenario you present; the situation might arise where we go over budget with payments to unemployed people--and money would still have to be found from somewhere else.


Josephus
 

Estonianzulu

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The_Hawk said:
My understanding was that that was currently the case... and that it's unlikely that unemployment will ever be much higher than it currently is (unless we do our jobs extremely poorly.) But then, I'm no economist...

International incidents may change our economy beyond our control. If unemployment were to jump we would have problems raising the revenue.

Either way, we would end up increasing taxes to cover the rise in having to pay for the unemployment. In the current case that would be a single raise, in your case it would be two, one for the unemployment and the other once we need the money.

The government can not simply keep raising taxes when we need money. Cutting spending may be necessary if more is needed in some places.
 

Erc

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Per Josephus, you are essentially asking for a substantial increase in taxes to fund (presumably) a substantial increase in government spending. It might have the effect of balancing the budget, but only at the cost of highly increased taxes, a price which our country cannot afford to bear. By shifting this expenditure out of general revenues, you've magically eliminated bÐ20 from the budget. Unless you were planning to lower general income taxes, any given taxpayer will have to not only pay his income and EPP taxes(which will not change), but this additional tax, "for his own well-being," of course, straight out of his paycheck. Whereas, under the current system, his unemployment benefits are covered by his own tax dollars (well, not exactly--it's a collective thing) alone. Now, there are two ways to interpret what you're saying, Per Josephus. Either:

1) "Each person will contribute to his own fund at a rate determined by law. This cash will be kept separate from every other person's, and will be paid back to him in amounts provided by law in the event he becomes unemployed."
If this is the case (this, by the way, is the way the EPP [Eutopian Pension Plan] is set up), then why not let each person save up the money the way he wants to? It saves the government bureaucracy of managing it all, and it can be invested better in private hands than public (it's your own money--better incentive). Unless, of course, you think that the Eutopian citizenry isn't capable of making its own financial decisions--a blatantly stupid and undemocratic point to be making. (Heck, on this logic, why do we even have the EPP? The people could be better served and money better invested in struggling Eutopian industries in private hands than in public--and it would save each and every Eutopian citizen a 16% tax on income each year--yes, that's right, regardless of income, each and every Eutopian citizen pays 16% of his income to the EPP each year [his employer contributes an additional 16%]--this is from data provided to me from Amric last term, fyi)

2) "Each person contributes to a general fund that will be paid out to recipients when they need it."

This appears to be what you're implying by your suggestions that it could be topped off from general revenue. If this is the case, what's the difference between this and the current system? Except it just looks prettier and allows us to say that we've increased government spending while (perhaps) balancing the budget and without increasing taxes--while, of course, every taxpayer will be paying more to the government each year.
 

Erc

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Oh, and Mr. President, concerning Unemployment Insurance, I would make the reccomendation, for at least the duration of this economic crisis, that you extend the maximum duration of unemployment benefits payments to twelve months, as per the RUBB. You'll also need to get Amric & Vilms to sign off on this to approve it.
 

Josephus I

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Per Talbott...Yes #2 is more or less what I am proposing. As I've repeated before...Yes, it does mean that each working citizen will pay more "tax". Technically, it's not a tax, but a contribution.

I firmly believe that citizens won't mind paying extra for services, as long as we're not wasting money on weapons and other government waste. I did campaing on this, and the electorate responded positively. You, who introduced RUBB, and your party, didn't fare so well.

You and I are in disagreement over this. Fine. Let's see what other people have to say.

Josephus Locke Sergei
 

Erc

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People resent having to pay taxes, no matter what it's used for. I don't know a single person who looks forward to tax day...
 

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What are we talking about in terms of actual value here? 5% per paycheck? 10%? .01%? Some of these answers would be much more palatable than others...
 

Erc

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I'd estimate about 4%.
 

The_Hawk

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I do not doubt your figures, Per Talbott, but could you provide us with some insight as to how you reached them?

Personally, I don't 4% is terribly bad, but I think 2.5% or lower would be better -- it could easily be written off as 'negligible', both in the press and by taxpayers.
 

Estonianzulu

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I am opposed to this, its merely increasing government spending and taxation. That is not the key to pulling Eutopia out of its rather dismall financial status. And Josephus, a contribution which is manditory is a tax. Oh, and just a point, you are in fact not President, just to remind you.

I am opposed to raising the tax, it will not help and will only seek to frustrate the people more. If we've got the money, why do we need to demand more? Josephus' idea, as Talbott pointed out, just makes us "look prettier" and in fact will do no good to us in budget wise.
 

Erc

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Check that...should be about 8.2%, actually.

(76 billion dollars in income tax, 31% (avg taxation rate) of total earned income, which amounts to 245 billion, of which 20 billion (cost of unemployment insurance, assuming Joe isn't increasing it) is 8.2%).

This would increase the average tax rate to a grand total of 55%, of which 31% goes to the government, 16% to the EPP, and 8% to this thing. Not even counting the extra 16% paid by employers to the EPP...(making it arguably a 61% tax rate on average).

This, good sirs, is a stifling tax rate. Society cannot maintain itself under such conditions. 47% is as bad enough as it is without adding an additional 8%.
 

Josephus I

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[OOC: This is where this game gets difficult. None of us are actuarians and can figure this stuff out. IRL people get paid huge bucks and use computer programs and projections to figure out what percentage works best...tomorrow I'll check my pay cheque and see what Canadians pay as a percentage]

IC: In addition to employee payments, there are also company contributions per employee, so that brings down the total percentage down. I think 4 per cent is the more likely number. But, let me check with my advisors and get back to you.

Josephus
 

unmerged(4021)

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Let us hash out the numbers on this new tax idea, one that can only be fairly considered if the tax burden will not be too high, otherwise we're looking at the high tax figures presented by Talbott and Vilms.

So let us turn to other points in the budget. Please remember that this budget MUST balance. I simply cannot condone deficit spending. At the sametime I think Eutopians expect certain levels of services. I do not think Eutopia is a country whose spending is out of control. This means we might have to seriously consider ways we can enhance revenues. This unemployment idea is one, do others have different ideas?

Josephus, I have a question for you: Right now the federal government seems to be paying for monies as dictated by the semi-autonomous regions for Education. Could you look into this and let us know if indeed the Federal Government is paying for things as demanded by the Latin regions?

Amric, and Vilms, what do you two think about extending the unemployment period?

Hopefully more firm numbers will be coming soon from the ECB, but I have heard they are very busy at the moment (OOC: Haven't had a free moment to recalculate stuff).

-Jonathan Glasser
President of Eutopia
 

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I hate to change subjects midstream, but an idea has occurred which requires urgent consideration if it is to be pursued. As mentioned previously, the Coast Guard may soon suffer a serious maintenance issue as its former facilities become privatized. I have to assume this problem extends to the Navy as well, or will eventually.

That said, what does everyone think of the possibility of the government bidding on our recently-privatized maintenance facilities and reincorporating them as a new company? This will obviously cut into our profit from the Maritcon sale, but construction enterprises would remain for sale to private parties... and given that it was the MARITime CONstruction Company, I would assume this would represent the majority of the funds to be gained from privatization.

Thoughts?
 

Estonianzulu

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Ok, I will respond 1-3.

1. Mr. President, we would be increasing taxes but not actually giving the people anything new. We would just be shifting money around. So, I am opposed. But I do have a question. Would partime jobs be taxed as well? And, if we tax the corporations more wont they simply lower payrates to componsate?

2. Why do we need to extend the unemployment time?

3. Would it be easier to simple offer discounts and bonuses and contracts to a private group to repair our vessels?
 

The_Hawk

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Estonianzulu said:
3. Would it be easier to simple offer discounts and bonuses and contracts to a private group to repair our vessels?

Perhaps. The Maritcon Privatization Bill gives the option to bid on Coast Guard contracts to the purchaser, but doesn't force them to do so -- and there's no guarantee they'll actually maintain the bases as naval repair facilities (this is prime land which could easily become marinas or the like.) Plus, we may wind up paying more than we did under Maritcon for maintenance services -- the only price guarantee limits the buyer to 117% of what we used to pay, and then only for a few years.
 

Josephus I

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>>Josephus, I have a question for you: Right now the federal government seems to be paying for monies as dictated by the semi-autonomous regions for Education. Could you look into this and let us know if indeed the Federal Government is paying for things as demanded by the Latin regions?
<<

Mr. President. I'll glady look this info up; but I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Are you talking about language courses, etc?


Josephus
 

Amric

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Mr. President,

Extend Unemployment benefits? Didn't the bill pass last session on unemployment? Talbott's bill that is? Which seems a rather lengthy period of time for benefits? I am unsure we can or should extend the benefits considering if I remember correctly it is a pretty lengthy period of time until they run out anyway. Or are you meaning something different?