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peo

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Originally posted by Silent Eagle
Gen. Goransson, I wonder why there is such a large difference between your estimate numbers, and Major Adals. To me, it sounds like 54000 men, perhaps as much as 70-80k would be the maximum we need. For the sake of our budget, could you give us an estimate of wage costs for this force and its supporting personnel, General?

My estimated numbers comes from the fact that less troops mean a meaningless army.

54000 soldiers makes a token force useless for any real action in any real conflict.
It would be similar to giving the navy 1 carrier with no planes or the airforce a lot of planes but no runway.

With a military of totaly about 120000 people would have a wage cost of about 4.6 billion dc.
This would give about 90000 to the army and the rest for the navy and airforce.
Now we have a wage cost of 6 billion.
So with training we would have about 5 billion and even 1 billion more if my estimates of numbers for the navy and airforce ar incorrect.
 

HJ Tulp

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Let me begin with saying that our Navy won't be sunk on day on of a war. The Navy has still got some punch left. Not much but still some. This is a prelimary report I've written. A better and more detailed report will follow.

A important expect of keeping our navy flooting and useble until the replacement are ready are the spar parts. As Captain of the ENS Unmatcheble I've been in several situations in which spar parts provided by the Naval Depot were partly or totally damaged while they were supposed to be new. Yesterday I've ordered a couple of officers to investigate it. I think it's wise to let ENDTech built the spare parts.

Navy:
2 Carriers ex US Essex(long) class (bought 1946 pre completion, completed 1950 at home)

These are the cause of people call us the World War Two raanacting (sp?) group. They're old and the airplanes on it are as well. Obsolete. I will state in my report the wish of the Navy to replace the two carriers with a Amphibious Assault Ship of the Wasp Class which can carry Harriers and probably the JSF.
This will give the Navy atleast some help from the skies.
Considering the building time of a Wasp and the other Assault vessel I recommend, the Rotterdam class I suggest they are top on the list for replacement.

4 Upholder diesel subs (bought 1988)
For our Navy they are quite new, are very low on the list though it depends on how many subs we want. These guys can still be very usefull if the crew is right and the equipement works.

10 Oberon diesel subs (bought 1965-70)
are the bulk of our submarine force and aren't really effective. I think that scrapping half of them to begin with might be a good idea. I still think that we should buy the Vikings when they'r ready.

4 Farragut destroyers (bought 1963-64)
least effective of the whole fleet, even the minesweepers are better, atleast they are good in what they are supposed to do.
These are after the carriers the first to be replaced.

12 Knox frigates (built at home 1970-75 to modified US design)
The Knox frigates are the bulk of our surface fleet. Though far less effective then the the Perries they can still be used for escort duties and defending our shores.
5 OH Perry frigates (short hull) (bought 1985-87)
The Perry's are, sadly so, the best the Navy has to offer. They are the most modern ships and give a good punch against second-rate navies. Should represent EUtopia in the rest of the world and be used as projecting some power.

Landing ships (enough for the marine regiment) (built at home 1975-77, ww2 type)
Need to be replaced as well, as this is a rather small project maybe ENDTech can build some after own design? A state of the art one to be prescise. Should be able to operate from both the Wasp and the Rotterdam class.

Also in inactive reserve is the battleship Bismark.
I was thinking of using the Bismarck as practise vessel for the cadets. If people object I suggest we buy a clipper alike sailvessel for that purpose.
 

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General, I used the numbers that YOU provided in my calculations. You said that when "fully mobilized", the army counted 280 000 conscripts. I beg that you don't demand that I 'do my homework' when the only reason for fallacious changes in my report comes from statistics that you personally released.

My analysis originally called for an army of 110 000 men, the regular army being composed of roughly the double amount of divisions later proposed (2 foot infantry, 6 mechanized infantry, 2 armoured) and 2 500 alpine troopers for every mountainous district. I reduced them from concern that Eutopia could not raise that amount of men (albeit reports conflicting with domestic information, notably on the strength of the French army, made me doubt my choice), and wasn't too concerned with the results since whereas a 100k-man-army would undoubtedly provide for optimal defense, I sincerely doubt of the very need for said optimal defense. The only occasion which would require such an impressive array of forces would be an en-masse landing of the Marines themselves on our coasts, and I duly estimate that parliament would likely have had the time to increase our armed forces should such a change in the political spectrum that would warrant NATO intervention on Eutopian soil occur.

At any rate, I will readily cede that if Eutopia wishes to flex its muscle on the international scene, a powerful army is needed. Whether this is the case is up to parliament to decide.
 

peo

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The military fully mobilized is 350000 soldiers.
280000 conscripts and 70000 officers and nco's.

Your estimate of how large a division is is to small.
You can hardly think that a division can be 5000 men.
A division is roughly 20-25000 which makes the figures you mentioned of 54000 very odd.

We need to have a professional army of 3 divisions with the supporting army corps units to retain the competence of fighting in that large units and that competence is neccecary if we want to be able to do it later on.

If we can't fill up all units with soldiers then may so be but in peacetime that isn't as important. If the threat rises more people will join and the problem of to few voulenteers will disapear.
If we lack a few infantry men then that isn't a disaster as long as we have the units to put them in if they decide to join.
 

Kurek

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Walks into the room
Good evening gentlemen, He looks around at the frozen faces hmmm, I see we are maintaining the regular excellant leval of activity. He finds his chair and lights a cigar.
 

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The MDIA eagerly awaits the report of the Commission and hopes that the Commission's business will finish very soon.

[OOC: and only OOC!: The Ministry is eager to stop talking about reforms, and actually reform. Also, it appears that I am the Chairman of this Commission now, aren't I? If that's the case, I suppose I have to make a speech.

Hello!

There, I spoke. :D :D :cool: ]
 

Kurek

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Your now the chairman... er, when did this happen? I dont keep up with much stuff.
Well, anyway, I cant contribute at the moment, with me in court and what not. :D Hmmm, would the MRC allow me to write up proposals in jail? :)
 

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Khan of the Crimea
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(letter from Washington)

Can we have somebody write up a report? The Ministry is eager (overeager?) to press reform and the MRC seems to be taking its time a little too liberally.
 

Kurek

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Er, I wrote up my Airforce Reform Proposal, a page or two back, seems that everyone else kinda abandoned there posts...

I might send a few PM's out later to see where everyone is.
 

Kurek

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When was that agreed upon? we havnt even come up with a proposal for military spening yet! I thought the aim of this commision was to agree upon a proposal, I havnt seen that happen yet.
 

HJ Tulp

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Allright, I propose we build:

1 Wasp class and
1 or 2 Rotterdam class vessels.


I also suggest the ENDTech comes up with a design for a new minehunting vessel. That shouldn't be to hard.
 

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Come up with a new minesweeper? I can probably do that. That would require the use of one of my naval facilities for an indefinite period though, Vice-Admiral, which would cut my ship building capacity down to 2.

If the gentlemen of the commission prefer to leave that research out of the commission's findings and reccomendations, I could even get started on the design right away. Or I can wait until the business of the commission has ended. Either way.

Also, if I may...

I believe we were deciding on a budget allotment. I think we even decided on a budget framework of 2.5 billion for the Navy, 2 for the Air Force, and 1.5 for the Army back on the bottom of page 17. We also now have proposals on the table from the Air Force thanks to Colonel Haynes, and the Navy thanks to the Vice-Admiral. I scoured through the notes very quickly, but didn't see a proposal for the Army from General Goransson. So, if we get (find) an Army proposal, and total up the costs seeing to it that they fit within the budget allotment for each branch and serve the needs mentioned in Lt. Gen. Hartwell's backbone for discussions (also on page 17) then we're DONE! So we're really not far off gentlemen.
 

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The following proposals have been put forward thus far. I hope you don't mind if I name them ;).
COLONEL HAYNES AIR FORCE PROPOSAL
I think it would be more cost effectice to have a airforce mainly consisting of F-16's with a few squandrons of F/A-18's, the F-16 is arguably the worlds most importand current fighter, its in widespread service around the world.
The F/A-18 would cost a lot more so it would make more sense to have mainly F-16's with a small number of F/A-18's

Whatever we choose we will need more modern training, the Bulldog is good for basic training but the other planes are too obsoloete, for more advanced jet training I sugesst the Northrop T-38 Talon, the Talon has proved remarkably trouble free in service and has also built up an unexpectiedly good reputation for safety.

I sugest around; (Rough est)
42 F/A-18's
92 F-16's,
2 Boeing E-3A Sentrys,

25 T-38 Talons (training)
REPORT ON STATUS OF LAND FORCES OF THE REPUBLIC OF EUTOPIA
AND FURTHER SUGGESTIONS
Mj. Bartoleme Adál, 112. Armoured Regiment

p.1
The first thing we must acknowledge is that the Eutopian army is 1) large, clumsy and unwieldy, 2) has no particular "mission" or goal to devote itself to, and 3) is, at any rate, patently incapable of accomplishing any such goal should its leaders condescend to give it one.

Thus, I have used the following statement as hypothetical mission of the Eutopian ground forces and built upon it to suppose its future make-up:

"The Eutopian ground forces have the duty to protect the territorial integrity of the Eutopian mainland and by extension all citizens that live or are otherwise within the limits of its national borders in the case of aggression by an individual, group or army that is declared enemy of the nation by the Eutopian parliament."

p.2
I estimate that the Eutopian Land Army requires approximately 54 000 professional soldiers to ensure the defense of its nation. Our times taken into consideration, this force ought to be largely mechanized; this means the purchase of a great number of the various types of armour, and while our insular position and ensuing coastal fortification may dispense us from thoughtlessly steel-plating the army together, history reminds us not to rely only on static defense arrays. This is emphasized by the fact that, as we must alleviate the weight on the backs of Eutopian tax-paying citizens, we are not at leisure to build a massive army of fantastic proportions; and so, we must simultaneously ensure 1. the defense of the entire littoral and 2. that our forces are numerous enough to repulse an invader, and this with a limited manpower pool. All this means, of course, high mobility. I have already made much talk of the railroad network in this function, but I digress, and will now proceed with demands in matters of armament: the only thing I am saying is that we should not be lured to stack all our men in concrete bunkers by the seaside, attractive as the option may be.

Considering the numbers of our Regular land army ought to hover about 50 000, I consider that some 40 000 of these should be mechanized. Of these, I propose that 10 000 be armoured. Thus, if we use the convenient number of ten thousand to divide our forces, we would have our army organized as follows:
-1 (Coastal) Foot Infantry division
-3 Mechanized Infantry divisions
-1 Armoured division

I cannot venture to assign them anywhere or to divide them further as long as the question of the southeast quarter remains unresolved.

The additional 4 000 men I have previously mentioned would compose a corps of well-trained alpine troops to whom we would give the mission of preserving the peace of our mountainous districts (four of which are distinct on a topographical map: each of these would obtain the guard of a thousand men).

Remains the question of how these men and divisions ought to be equipped. I will not venture any precise numbers (ooc: after all, I really know mess-all of how a division is organized equipment-wise), but these approximations should allow Supply Branch to make accurate decisions about future weaponry purchases.

-MBTs to equip one division of ten thousand men. National interest will instruct us to purchase the Gorgon MkII, which I am assured is a viable warmachine.

-AFVs to equip three divisions of ten thousand men each. We are creating a new AFV alongside Mexico and Thailand... I will, in this case, propose a bold gamble for the Eutopian Army. We ought to not purchase any new AFVs until this project comes to fruition, taking the peaceful state of the world as guarantee of territorial integrity. Once it is ready, we will arm our forces with it. An alternative to this risky plan is to purchase a sure-fire safe-investment AFV like the American Bradley for the duration of research, then sell them off to the highest bidder once our own AFV is ready.

-We will then of course require light arms, such as rifles, machine-guns and mortar, as well as heavier weapons such as artillery, helicopters to assure command and control, and anti-tank and anti-air weaponry. All these must be bought new or built here; that is to say, our army's equipment is currently woefully inadequate to any and every task.

-I will add that our alpine troops need not be mechanized but would perhaps better be served by horses, all-terrain vehicles and helicopters.

This, and a general overhaul of the communications network, concludes the needs of the land army to perform efficiently. I have prepared a few miscellaneous articles, as follow.

1. I propose a simplifying reform to the command structure, from highest to lowest:

-General of Eutopia
-Colonel
-Major
-Captain
-Lieutenant
-Sergeant
-Corporal
-Private

(ooc: from the well-respected military source of Stratego )
I believe this system will allow for an appropriate repartition of troops around the nation, while minimizing useless and potentially dangerous bureaucracy within the military hierarchy.

2. The army should have an elite, rapid-response unit for various purposes (clearing the way for the regular army, defusing crises before they escalate and assisting the police, etc.). Five hundred of the best soldiers should be hand-picked from the Armed Forces manpower pool and trained into a surgical-strike commando team.

3. I propose that from now on the official name of the Eutopian ground forces be the Eutopian Land Army (ELA).

4. I have further studies about the assignment of troops about the country which I would presume to suggest should the commission pronounce its final decision on the overall makeup of the land army.
NAVY REFORM PROPOSAL
I propose we build:

1 Wasp class and
1 or 2 Rotterdam class vessels.

I also suggest the ENDTech comes up with a design for a new minehunting vessel.
Airforce, army, navy. Any other proposals? Where's the budget one? Can someone write it up? Should we vote on these three?
 

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I am glad to be part of this commission and hope to contribute some good ideas for military reform.

Funding:

Navy-50%
Airforce-25%
Army-25%

Technology Advancement:

I believe we should develop a gun simular to the M16-A2 with our own modifications.

Also we should advance our tanks, ships, and overall equipment with our own designs.

Soldiers, Pilots, Sailors, etc:

I believe we should be a FULLY professional volunteer military and maintain 250,000 professional volunteer troops. I believe the American system is a perfect model for this.
 

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Charles, see page 17 for the budgeting proposal. It was put forth by Lt. Gen. Hartwell, your predecessor. I will put it forth again:

BUDGET ALLOTMENT PROPOSAL
Navy: 2.5 billion ducats
Air Force: 2 billion ducats
Army: 1.5 billion ducats
Total: 6 billion ducats, the entire Eutopian Armed Forces procurement budget for the year.
 

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Khan of the Crimea
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Page 17? (looks again) How many posts do you have per page?
 

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I have 25 posts per page, and this is the last one on page 17.

Originally posted by Dan_3634
I think 1.5 billion for army. 2 billion for air force and 2.5 for navy works best. Obviously this is going to spill over into the next government term but lets keep at it.