Is there at least one thing we agreed upon? I propose we vote on General Goransons proposal.
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Ok guys I want your reports and I want them now. Submit them then we can discuss them. Get them all in before the new MDIA comes along. Hopefully that will be me again but no gurantees.
I want results gentlemen!
I want results gentlemen!
I think Mr. Jools ment your proposal about when what to buy, with the groups you know.
I have two questions which answers I must know to be able to work out a good plan.
to our ahem beloved politicians: with the problems in the economy and the fact that the EUtopian budget is to high, will the annual amount of 6 billion EUtopian ducats for the modernisation of the EUtopian Military stay the same?
To the others: of that 6 billion ducats, who get's who? General Gorannson has agreed that the Army will take the bak seat but how much is that? 1 billion and the Airforce and the Navy both get 2.5 every year? Or 1.5 billion and the Airforce and Navy both get 2.25 every year?
I have two questions which answers I must know to be able to work out a good plan.
to our ahem beloved politicians: with the problems in the economy and the fact that the EUtopian budget is to high, will the annual amount of 6 billion EUtopian ducats for the modernisation of the EUtopian Military stay the same?
To the others: of that 6 billion ducats, who get's who? General Gorannson has agreed that the Army will take the bak seat but how much is that? 1 billion and the Airforce and the Navy both get 2.5 every year? Or 1.5 billion and the Airforce and Navy both get 2.25 every year?
I think 1.5 billion for army. 2 billion for air force and 2.5 for navy works best. Obviously this is going to spill over into the next government term but lets keep at it.
Perhaps someone of the military could summarise all that has been semi-decided upon until now, so the next administration can continue our work with as little delay as possible?
I think we can afford to let the army take a back seat. Eutopia is an island, and will as such be primarily defended by its navy and its airforce. The army should form the small, but solid core of a multi-layered network of defense. Here is my report, btw:
--
REPORT ON STATUS OF LAND FORCES OF THE REPUBLIC OF EUTOPIA
AND FURTHER SUGGESTIONS
Mj. Bartoleme Adál, 112. Armoured Regiment
p.1
The first thing we must acknowledge is that the Eutopian army is 1) large, clumsy and unwieldy, 2) has no particular "mission" or goal to devote itself to, and 3) is, at any rate, patently incapable of accomplishing any such goal should its leaders condescend to give it one.
Thus, I have used the following statement as hypothetical mission of the Eutopian ground forces and built upon it to suppose its future make-up:
"The Eutopian ground forces have the duty to protect the territorial integrity of the Eutopian mainland and by extension all citizens that live or are otherwise within the limits of its national borders in the case of aggression by an individual, group or army that is declared enemy of the nation by the Eutopian parliament."
p.2
I estimate that the Eutopian Land Army requires approximately 54 000 professional soldiers to ensure the defense of its nation. Our times taken into consideration, this force ought to be largely mechanized; this means the purchase of a great number of the various types of armour, and while our insular position and ensuing coastal fortification may dispense us from thoughtlessly steel-plating the army together, history reminds us not to rely only on static defense arrays. This is emphasized by the fact that, as we must alleviate the weight on the backs of Eutopian tax-paying citizens, we are not at leisure to build a massive army of fantastic proportions; and so, we must simultaneously ensure 1. the defense of the entire littoral and 2. that our forces are numerous enough to repulse an invader, and this with a limited manpower pool. All this means, of course, high mobility. I have already made much talk of the railroad network in this function, but I digress, and will now proceed with demands in matters of armament: the only thing I am saying is that we should not be lured to stack all our men in concrete bunkers by the seaside, attractive as the option may be.
Considering the numbers of our Regular land army ought to hover about 50 000, I consider that some 40 000 of these should be mechanized. Of these, I propose that 10 000 be armoured. Thus, if we use the convenient number of ten thousand to divide our forces, we would have our army organized as follows:
-1 (Coastal) Foot Infantry division
-3 Mechanized Infantry divisions
-1 Armoured division
I cannot venture to assign them anywhere or to divide them further as long as the question of the southeast quarter remains unresolved.
The additional 4 000 men I have previously mentioned would compose a corps of well-trained alpine troops to whom we would give the mission of preserving the peace of our mountainous districts (four of which are distinct on a topographical map: each of these would obtain the guard of a thousand men).
Remains the question of how these men and divisions ought to be equipped. I will not venture any precise numbers (ooc: after all, I really know mess-all of how a division is organized equipment-wise), but these approximations should allow Supply Branch to make accurate decisions about future weaponry purchases.
-MBTs to equip one division of ten thousand men. National interest will instruct us to purchase the Gorgon MkII, which I am assured is a viable warmachine.
-AFVs to equip three divisions of ten thousand men each. We are creating a new AFV alongside Mexico and Thailand... I will, in this case, propose a bold gamble for the Eutopian Army. We ought to not purchase any new AFVs until this project comes to fruition, taking the peaceful state of the world as guarantee of territorial integrity. Once it is ready, we will arm our forces with it. An alternative to this risky plan is to purchase a sure-fire safe-investment AFV like the American Bradley for the duration of research, then sell them off to the highest bidder once our own AFV is ready.
-We will then of course require light arms, such as rifles, machine-guns and mortar, as well as heavier weapons such as artillery, helicopters to assure command and control, and anti-tank and anti-air weaponry. All these must be bought new or built here; that is to say, our army's equipment is currently woefully inadequate to any and every task.
-I will add that our alpine troops need not be mechanized but would perhaps better be served by horses, all-terrain vehicles and helicopters.
This, and a general overhaul of the communications network, concludes the needs of the land army to perform efficiently. I have prepared a few miscellaneous articles, as follow.
1. I propose a simplifying reform to the command structure, from highest to lowest:
-General of Eutopia
-Colonel
-Major
-Captain
-Lieutenant
-Sergeant
-Corporal
-Private
(ooc: from the well-respected military source of Stratego)
I believe this system will allow for an appropriate repartition of troops around the nation, while minimizing useless and potentially dangerous bureaucracy within the military hierarchy.
2. The army should have an elite, rapid-response unit for various purposes (clearing the way for the regular army, defusing crises before they escalate and assisting the police, etc.). Five hundred of the best soldiers should be hand-picked from the Armed Forces manpower pool and trained into a surgical-strike commando team.
3. I propose that from now on the official name of the Eutopian ground forces be the Eutopian Land Army (ELA).
4. I have further studies about the assignment of troops about the country which I would presume to suggest should the commission pronounce its final decision on the overall makeup of the land army.
--
--
REPORT ON STATUS OF LAND FORCES OF THE REPUBLIC OF EUTOPIA
AND FURTHER SUGGESTIONS
Mj. Bartoleme Adál, 112. Armoured Regiment
p.1
The first thing we must acknowledge is that the Eutopian army is 1) large, clumsy and unwieldy, 2) has no particular "mission" or goal to devote itself to, and 3) is, at any rate, patently incapable of accomplishing any such goal should its leaders condescend to give it one.
Thus, I have used the following statement as hypothetical mission of the Eutopian ground forces and built upon it to suppose its future make-up:
"The Eutopian ground forces have the duty to protect the territorial integrity of the Eutopian mainland and by extension all citizens that live or are otherwise within the limits of its national borders in the case of aggression by an individual, group or army that is declared enemy of the nation by the Eutopian parliament."
p.2
I estimate that the Eutopian Land Army requires approximately 54 000 professional soldiers to ensure the defense of its nation. Our times taken into consideration, this force ought to be largely mechanized; this means the purchase of a great number of the various types of armour, and while our insular position and ensuing coastal fortification may dispense us from thoughtlessly steel-plating the army together, history reminds us not to rely only on static defense arrays. This is emphasized by the fact that, as we must alleviate the weight on the backs of Eutopian tax-paying citizens, we are not at leisure to build a massive army of fantastic proportions; and so, we must simultaneously ensure 1. the defense of the entire littoral and 2. that our forces are numerous enough to repulse an invader, and this with a limited manpower pool. All this means, of course, high mobility. I have already made much talk of the railroad network in this function, but I digress, and will now proceed with demands in matters of armament: the only thing I am saying is that we should not be lured to stack all our men in concrete bunkers by the seaside, attractive as the option may be.
Considering the numbers of our Regular land army ought to hover about 50 000, I consider that some 40 000 of these should be mechanized. Of these, I propose that 10 000 be armoured. Thus, if we use the convenient number of ten thousand to divide our forces, we would have our army organized as follows:
-1 (Coastal) Foot Infantry division
-3 Mechanized Infantry divisions
-1 Armoured division
I cannot venture to assign them anywhere or to divide them further as long as the question of the southeast quarter remains unresolved.
The additional 4 000 men I have previously mentioned would compose a corps of well-trained alpine troops to whom we would give the mission of preserving the peace of our mountainous districts (four of which are distinct on a topographical map: each of these would obtain the guard of a thousand men).
Remains the question of how these men and divisions ought to be equipped. I will not venture any precise numbers (ooc: after all, I really know mess-all of how a division is organized equipment-wise), but these approximations should allow Supply Branch to make accurate decisions about future weaponry purchases.
-MBTs to equip one division of ten thousand men. National interest will instruct us to purchase the Gorgon MkII, which I am assured is a viable warmachine.
-AFVs to equip three divisions of ten thousand men each. We are creating a new AFV alongside Mexico and Thailand... I will, in this case, propose a bold gamble for the Eutopian Army. We ought to not purchase any new AFVs until this project comes to fruition, taking the peaceful state of the world as guarantee of territorial integrity. Once it is ready, we will arm our forces with it. An alternative to this risky plan is to purchase a sure-fire safe-investment AFV like the American Bradley for the duration of research, then sell them off to the highest bidder once our own AFV is ready.
-We will then of course require light arms, such as rifles, machine-guns and mortar, as well as heavier weapons such as artillery, helicopters to assure command and control, and anti-tank and anti-air weaponry. All these must be bought new or built here; that is to say, our army's equipment is currently woefully inadequate to any and every task.
-I will add that our alpine troops need not be mechanized but would perhaps better be served by horses, all-terrain vehicles and helicopters.
This, and a general overhaul of the communications network, concludes the needs of the land army to perform efficiently. I have prepared a few miscellaneous articles, as follow.
1. I propose a simplifying reform to the command structure, from highest to lowest:
-General of Eutopia
-Colonel
-Major
-Captain
-Lieutenant
-Sergeant
-Corporal
-Private
(ooc: from the well-respected military source of Stratego
)I believe this system will allow for an appropriate repartition of troops around the nation, while minimizing useless and potentially dangerous bureaucracy within the military hierarchy.
2. The army should have an elite, rapid-response unit for various purposes (clearing the way for the regular army, defusing crises before they escalate and assisting the police, etc.). Five hundred of the best soldiers should be hand-picked from the Armed Forces manpower pool and trained into a surgical-strike commando team.
3. I propose that from now on the official name of the Eutopian ground forces be the Eutopian Land Army (ELA).
4. I have further studies about the assignment of troops about the country which I would presume to suggest should the commission pronounce its final decision on the overall makeup of the land army.
--
That is an excellent report Major Adal. Very thourough and detailed. I am going to ask for volunteer to compile all the reports into a coherent single report.
OOC] I'm not exactly that much of an expert to be able to work out what everyone is on about.
OOC] I'm not exactly that much of an expert to be able to work out what everyone is on about.
Hmm...
54000 troops in the army...
You gotta be kidding.
The army should and must consist of at least 1 complete army corps. This is 3 divisions meaning about 100000 men.
Then there should be a reserve of about twice that.
That is the minimum amount required to defend Eutopia.
54000 troops in the army...
You gotta be kidding.
The army should and must consist of at least 1 complete army corps. This is 3 divisions meaning about 100000 men.
Then there should be a reserve of about twice that.
That is the minimum amount required to defend Eutopia.
That's even more than the complete amount of men we could recruit in a *conscription army*, for all three branches combined. Unless we start cloning people, it's not gonna happen.
To be honest I had double the amount of men at first (110 000), but I cut it in half after looking at the amount of men we could raise. I'll be quite relieved if you tell me there was a screwup somewhere in those numbers, because it dismayed me quite a bit, and the cut was rather arbitrary (I basically noticed it a few minutes before posting the report).
To be honest I had double the amount of men at first (110 000), but I cut it in half after looking at the amount of men we could raise. I'll be quite relieved if you tell me there was a screwup somewhere in those numbers, because it dismayed me quite a bit, and the cut was rather arbitrary (I basically noticed it a few minutes before posting the report).
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I;m quite sure we agreed on a consription army and a prof. Navy and Airforce.
Must be somewhere in the books
*get's his 300+ pages MRC-book*
Must be somewhere in the books
*get's his 300+ pages MRC-book*
I'm very pleased to see some more definate data and ideas coming round. Thank you, Major Adal.
I think your numbers are quite realistic - at this point, we cannot afford a strong, modern AND large army. It seems wise to strive towards a mobile and well-equipped smaller force, such as Maj. Adal suggests.
I think your numbers are quite realistic - at this point, we cannot afford a strong, modern AND large army. It seems wise to strive towards a mobile and well-equipped smaller force, such as Maj. Adal suggests.
OOC just lettin gyou all know I'm stepping down from the race for MDIA next term. I don't have the time or know how for the job. I will stay on as CINCAF though. Thnaks for the great times Dan
(OCC, didnt know this thread was in the private thread forum, i kinda lost it fot a bit... do'h!, anyway, Im feeling lazy and I think my old recomendations are perfect, so Ill re post them )
Here is my reform plan, could take many years to achieve, but this is what I think would be best.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it would be more cost effectice to have a airforce mainly consisting of F-16's with a few squandrons of F/A-18's, the F-16 is arguably the worlds most importand current fighter, its in widespread service around the world.
The F/A-18 would cost a lot more so it would make more sense to have mainly F-16's with a small number of F/A-18's
Whatever we choose we will need more modern training, the Bulldog is good for basic training but the other planes are too obsoloete, for more advanced jet training I sugesst the Northrop T-38 Talon, the Talon has proved remarkably trouble free in service and has also built up an unexpectiedly good reputation for safety.
I sugest around; (Rough est)
42 F/A-18's
92 F-16's,
2 Boeing E-3A Sentrys,
25 T-38 Talons (training)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even countries that run two seater main planes for training still use a basic training jet to get the basics of Jet flying, which is why I sugest the T-38's
We have 10 Airbases. I sugest we use 3 active airbases to station our squadrons, New Lancaster, Eutopia City, Neuwestbade, and Villefranche.
Eutopia airbase should have 2 sqds of F-16s and 1 sqd of F/A-18s.
New Lancaster and Villefranche should have 1 sqn of F-16's each
Neuwestbaden will have 1 sqn of F/A-18s
The Sentries should be based at Eutopia city.
Training schools should be based at the airbase in the northwest WET.
So by that recomendation we shall need these aircraft...
4 Sqds of F-16's (60)
2 Sqds F/A 18's (30)
2 Boeing E-3A Sentrys
Around 15 T-38's
We keep the 12 C-130 Hercules and 12 CH-3 Rescue Helicopters
We can station these around the various airbasese, whereever they are needed most.
I say we keep the Bulldog in service, as well as some small amouints of the other trainers
I sugest that the command structire and organisation of the airforces be comepletly remodled, the airforce needs to be flexible.
I sugest the hierachy be something like this...
Marshall of the Airforce (Head)
Vice Marshall of the Airforce
Air Marshall (4 of them, responsible for 4 different "sectors" of the country)
Air Vice Marshall
Group Captain (highest ranking officer of a airbase)
Squadron Leader (Ranking officer in a squadron)
Flight Leutennant (Ranking officer of a flight, (Sqns would consist of at least 2 flights each))
2nd Leutenant
Pilot Officer (lowest rank for pilot)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A quote justifying lesser technology planes)
I insist that a change in rank system is needed, our boys are fed up with using Army ranks, would the Navy be happyt using army ranks? no! so why should we? We are a seperate branch from the airforce!
and not much cost difference?!
as you said.
F-18 A/B unit cost: ~35 million.
F-18 E/F unit cost: ~60 million.
F-16 C/D unit cost: ~26 million.
The cost difference between the F-16 C/D anc F/A18 A/B is 10 mil, mulitply that by the 70 planes we need minimum and thats a cost difference of 700 million! Which is quite a large cost difference, we are on a limited budget here!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I agree that this could take a while to achieve, many years, but with work and effort I believe this is possible.
Colonel David Haynes,
Eutopian Airforce
)Here is my reform plan, could take many years to achieve, but this is what I think would be best.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it would be more cost effectice to have a airforce mainly consisting of F-16's with a few squandrons of F/A-18's, the F-16 is arguably the worlds most importand current fighter, its in widespread service around the world.
The F/A-18 would cost a lot more so it would make more sense to have mainly F-16's with a small number of F/A-18's
Whatever we choose we will need more modern training, the Bulldog is good for basic training but the other planes are too obsoloete, for more advanced jet training I sugesst the Northrop T-38 Talon, the Talon has proved remarkably trouble free in service and has also built up an unexpectiedly good reputation for safety.
I sugest around; (Rough est)
42 F/A-18's
92 F-16's,
2 Boeing E-3A Sentrys,
25 T-38 Talons (training)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even countries that run two seater main planes for training still use a basic training jet to get the basics of Jet flying, which is why I sugest the T-38's
We have 10 Airbases. I sugest we use 3 active airbases to station our squadrons, New Lancaster, Eutopia City, Neuwestbade, and Villefranche.
Eutopia airbase should have 2 sqds of F-16s and 1 sqd of F/A-18s.
New Lancaster and Villefranche should have 1 sqn of F-16's each
Neuwestbaden will have 1 sqn of F/A-18s
The Sentries should be based at Eutopia city.
Training schools should be based at the airbase in the northwest WET.
So by that recomendation we shall need these aircraft...
4 Sqds of F-16's (60)
2 Sqds F/A 18's (30)
2 Boeing E-3A Sentrys
Around 15 T-38's
We keep the 12 C-130 Hercules and 12 CH-3 Rescue Helicopters
We can station these around the various airbasese, whereever they are needed most.
I say we keep the Bulldog in service, as well as some small amouints of the other trainers
I sugest that the command structire and organisation of the airforces be comepletly remodled, the airforce needs to be flexible.
I sugest the hierachy be something like this...
Marshall of the Airforce (Head)
Vice Marshall of the Airforce
Air Marshall (4 of them, responsible for 4 different "sectors" of the country)
Air Vice Marshall
Group Captain (highest ranking officer of a airbase)
Squadron Leader (Ranking officer in a squadron)
Flight Leutennant (Ranking officer of a flight, (Sqns would consist of at least 2 flights each))
2nd Leutenant
Pilot Officer (lowest rank for pilot)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(A quote justifying lesser technology planes)
I insist that a change in rank system is needed, our boys are fed up with using Army ranks, would the Navy be happyt using army ranks? no! so why should we? We are a seperate branch from the airforce!
and not much cost difference?!
as you said.
F-18 A/B unit cost: ~35 million.
F-18 E/F unit cost: ~60 million.
F-16 C/D unit cost: ~26 million.
The cost difference between the F-16 C/D anc F/A18 A/B is 10 mil, mulitply that by the 70 planes we need minimum and thats a cost difference of 700 million! Which is quite a large cost difference, we are on a limited budget here!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I agree that this could take a while to achieve, many years, but with work and effort I believe this is possible.
Colonel David Haynes,
Eutopian Airforce
I am being forced to step down as chairman of this commission. I will not be able to be around for roughlly a fortnight at least.
OOC) Dammit my Russian teacher is a real task master. Learn this by tommorow she says and hands me a wad of pages. Nyet! Leave me alone! you Russian witch!
OOC) Dammit my Russian teacher is a real task master. Learn this by tommorow she says and hands me a wad of pages. Nyet! Leave me alone! you Russian witch!
Good luck with your future endeavours commander, was a pleasure working with you.
To everyone else; whereas this momentary lack of minister may prove a problem with the execution of our resolutions, I would like to point out that even if we wished to, we are not currently capable of executing anything. I would like for this frustratingly slow pace to pick up a little, if possible. We are still lacking an analysis on the state of the navy: admiral?
To everyone else; whereas this momentary lack of minister may prove a problem with the execution of our resolutions, I would like to point out that even if we wished to, we are not currently capable of executing anything. I would like for this frustratingly slow pace to pick up a little, if possible. We are still lacking an analysis on the state of the navy: admiral?
In a conscription military we can draft 50% of the population.
Meaning about 13 million soldiers.
Theoreticaly.
Practicaly it is less.
Right now we each year draft about 70000 soldiers each year and we have 70000 full time employees.
Which means we would as i have stated repeatedly earlier only have to increase the number of full time employees with about 40000.
The 70000 soldiers that we draft is less than the full amount of each class of youth.
Each year about 170000 male youth reach the drafting age.
So in effect we draft less than half that we could at present legislation.
Next time do your homework when it comes to how large the draft is.
Meaning about 13 million soldiers.
Theoreticaly.
Practicaly it is less.
Right now we each year draft about 70000 soldiers each year and we have 70000 full time employees.
Which means we would as i have stated repeatedly earlier only have to increase the number of full time employees with about 40000.
The 70000 soldiers that we draft is less than the full amount of each class of youth.
Each year about 170000 male youth reach the drafting age.
So in effect we draft less than half that we could at present legislation.
Next time do your homework when it comes to how large the draft is.
Gen. Goransson, I wonder why there is such a large difference between your estimate numbers, and Major Adals. To me, it sounds like 54000 men, perhaps as much as 70-80k would be the maximum we need. For the sake of our budget, could you give us an estimate of wage costs for this force and its supporting personnel, General?