PRIVATE - Military Reform Commission (MRC)

[System Lord]

Military Reform Commission (MRC)

Welcome to the Military Reform Commission or MRC. This commission has been opened by myself the Minister of Defense and International Affairs at the behest of President O'Floinn. All members of the Armed Forces of Eutopia are members of this commission.

The commission is charged with the following objectives.

1] To form a detailed plan for the modernisation of the Eutopian Military's equipment and hardware.

2] To form a detailed list of additional equipment and hardware needed to secure the security of Eutopia from external threat.

3] To form a comphrehensive proposal for the re-structuring of the Eutopian Military in relation to recruitment, training and command.

4] To form a proposal for the creation of a special operations or counter terrorist force for Eutopia's defense against acts of terror.

5] To write a comphrehensive 'Defense White Paper' detailing the strategic and tactical outlook of the military for the future.

Commission Mebers;
Minister of Defense and International Affairs (MDIA): Lt. General Daniel Hartwell (Dan_3634) *will act as commission chairman*

President of Eutopia Mr. John O'Floinn (Phalanx) in his role as Commander in Chief of the Eutopian Military.

Deputy Minister of International Affairs (DMIA): Mr. Robert Vergocz (rOver)

Advisor of the Army: Maj. Bartoleme Adál (Andrea Doria)

Advisor of the Air Forces: Colonel David Haynes (kurek)

Advisor of the Navy: open

Advisor of Inernational Affairs: Lt. Patrick Murray (Shiiuga)

NDTech Corporation CEO:Michael von Struesser (von struesser)

Council of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (CJCS):
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and Chief of Army Lt. General Paul Goransson (Peo)
Cheif of the Navy Vice Admiral Hendrik Tulp-van Apeldoorn (HJ Tulp)
Chief of the Air Force Lt. General Daniel Hartwell (Dan_3634)*note I'm not actually joint chief but I will hold that position when I'm not MDIA.

Representatives of each party:
ESRP: Josephus I
RD: Silent Eagle
MP: Akestra
CC: Jools
CRE: Estonianzulu


OOC don't post in this thread unless your name appears above. Send your comments via pm to a member of the military. that excludes the mods who can do what they want anyway.

 

[System Lord]

The Armed Forces of Eutopia

OOC taken from the armed forces thread courtesy of peo.

Here is the current organisation of the military and its current equipment.

The Eutopia military is based on conscription from the experience of having fought in WW2.
From the age of 18 all males is eligable for beeing drafted into the military.
The army and marine infantry has a service time of 12 months, after theese 12 months you are in the scrolls for 4 years. Meaning that if there is a war you must report to your unit to be mobilized.
Navy and Airforce has a 15 month term of service, 3 months basic training 12 months service on ship/base.
Submarine crews has a 18 months term, 6 months basic 12 months on ship (this does not mean 12 months at sea).
The Navy and Airforce conscripts are written out scrolls at the end of their term. Altough if there is a war they might be called up again. Unless there is a decision to increase the armed forces in time of war with a militia type unit they will be left to tend to their normal jobs. This also apply to Army and Marine conscripts after their 4 year term is up.

Employment:
The Armed forces has 70000 full time officers and nco's and 10000 civilian employees. When fully mobilized the armed forces has 280000 conscript soldiers.
Before you can become a officer you have to have completed a conscription term, at least 12 months for the army for example.
Officer training is free and on a university level.
The Eutopian officer training school is in Eutopia city, all officers has 2 year common training before they go to their units to start handling new conscripts. The schooling is not only military but includes among other things math and english.
After the 2 years are up the cadets get a commision, all cadets are guaranteed a commision unless they fail during school.
Pilots follow a different path, after 1 year they go to the eutopian armed forces aviation school in Buen Puerto where they stay for 2 years after which they get a commision.
NCO's are conscripts that want to stay on after their term is up, they go to a NCO school for 6-12 months depending on speciallity.
The NCO's are mainly responsible for handling the fresh conscripts and every 4 years they get to train their own unit.
Civilian employees are janitors, mechanics, cooks, doctors secretaries and so on.

Organization:
The armed forces has 3 branches.
The army, navy and airforce.
Joint Headquarters is in Eutopia city.

The army:
The army's organization is as follows:

Army HQ is in Eutopia city.
1st armoured corps
2 armoured divisions (1 in Eutopia city, 1 in Hafnia)
1 mechanized infantery division (in Neuwestbaden)
1 Attack helicopter battalion (in Eutopia city)
1 Command battalion (in Eutopia city)
1 Intellegence battalion (in Eutopia city)
1 Support regiment (in Eutopia city)

2nd Infantery corps (motorized, 6x6 trucks)
3 Infantery divisions (1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Chateauvallon, 1 in St Brendanstown
1 Command battalion (based in New Lancaster city)
1 Intellegence battalion (based in New Lancaster city)
1 Supply regiment (based in New Lancaster city)

3rd Infantery corps (motorized, 6x6 trucks)
3 Infantery divisions (1 in St Martin de porres, 1 in Buen Puerto, 1 in Fort-aux-Francais)
1 Command battalion (based in St Martin de porres)
1 Intellegence battalion (based in St Martin de porres)
1 Supply regiment (based in St Martin de porres)

2 Mountain ranger brigades (1 in Farpoint, 1 in a small city in WET)

1 Airborne regiment (in Eutopia city)
2 Transport helicopter battalion (in Eutopia city)

The Navy:
The navy's organisation is as follows:
The Navy HQ is in Buen Puerto.
3 naval bases (1 in Buen Puerto , 1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Hurteu)
2 Carrier groups (in Buen Puerto)
3 ASW groups (1 in Buen Puerto, 1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Hurteu)
2 Minewarfare groups(1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Buen Puerto)
2 Submarine groups (1 based in New Lancaster city, 1 in Buen Puerto)
1 Supply group (split between New lancaster city and Buen Puerto)
1 Amphibius group (based in Hurteu)
1 Marine infantery regiment (based in Hurteu)

The Air force:
The organization of the Air Force is as follows:
The Airforce HQ is in Eutopia city.

10 airbases (1 in Eutopia city, 1 in Harton, 1 in Nueva Córdoba , 1 in Spalding, 1 in Villefranche, 1 in Montaigu, 1 on Isla Real, 1 in the northwest part of WET, 1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Neuwestbaden)
5 AD battalions (1 in Eutopia city, 1 in Buen Puerto, 1 in Hurteau, 1 in New Lancaster city, 1 in Nueva Córdoba)

Armed forces equipment:
Army:
360 Leopard 1 (bought 1971)
450 M113 (Tracked APC) (200 bought in 65, the rest built at home from then)
300 Wheeled APC's (built at home from 73 to a Eutopian design)
100 BV206 (SUSV(t)) (bought from 84)
324 RBS70 SAM's (bought 80-85)
Red eye SAM (for 18 platoons) (bought 1970)
Stinger SAM (for 7 platoons) (bought 1996-)
54 40mm L/60 Bofors AAA (bought ca 1945, new barrels)
378 81mm Mortar (built at home 1950-70, Eutopian design)
102 120mm Mortar (Built at home 1984-, Eutopian design)
150 105mm Howitzer M101A1 (bought ca1960)
324 155mm Howitzer FH77B (bought 1988-95)
TOW missile launchers
107mm Recoil less rifle
varius trucks and cars

30 AH-1S (bought 1985-95)
40 UH-1 (bought 1965)
20 CH-47C (bought 1970)

 

[System Lord]

The Armed Forces of Eutopia

Navy:
2 Carriers ex US Essex(long) class (bought 1946 pre completion, completed 1950 at home)
4 Upholder diesel subs (bought 1988)
10 Oberon diesel subs (bought 1965-70)
4 Farragut destroyers (bought 1963-64)
12 Knox frigates (built at home 1970-75 to modified US design)
5 OH Perry frigates (short hull) (bought 1985-87)
2 Supply ships (built at home 1975-77, modified civilian design)
1 fleet oiler (built at home 1978)
10 inshore mine sweepers (built at home 1977-85, Eutopian design, wooden ships)
Landing ships (enough for the marine regiment) (built at home 1975-77, ww2 type)
Also in inactive reserve is the battleship Bismark.

40 A-4 Carrier based attack aircraft (bought 1955)
24 F-8 Carrier based figher (bought 1962)
8 Br. 1050 Alizé Carrier ASW (bought 1960)
8 CASA 212 Land based ASW (bought 1985)
8 SH-3 ASW Helicopter (bought 1970)
10 SH-2 ASW Helicopter (bought 1975)
3 CH-3 rescue/transport Helicopter (bought 1965)

60 Bv206 (SUSV(t)) (bought 1985)
18 120mm Mortar (built at home 1984, Eutopian design)
18 81mm Mortar (built at home 1950-70)
Various trucks and cars.

Airforce:
84 F-5A Tiger (bought 1965)
24 F-5E TigerII (bought 1980)
12 F-8 Crusader (bought 1962)
24 A-4 Skyhawk (bought 1957)
12 A-7E CorsairII (bought 1975)
12 RF-8 (recon aircraft) (bought 1985)
12 C-130 Hercules (bought 1970-80)
12 CH-3 Rescue Helicopters (bought 1965)

90 40mm L/70 Bofors AAA (bought 1958)
Fire directors and radars for the above bought 1967-72)
60 81mm Mortar (built at home 1950-70, Eutopian design)
5 Hawk missile battalions (bought 1974)
Varius trucks and cars.

Aviation training school:
24 Bristol Bulldog basic trainers (bought 1980)
10 TH-5 Osage Basic training helicopter (bought 1970)
12 F-5B Advanced Trainer (bought 1965)
6 TA-4 Trainer (bought 1955)
6 TA-7 Trainer (bought 1975)

Common equipment:
FN-FAL 7.62mmN Rifle (built at home 1960-90, on licence from FN Herstal)
FN-MAG 7.62mmN GPMG (built at home 1975-85, on licence from FN Herstal)
Submachine gun (blowback) (built at home 1950-70, Eutopian design)
Pistols of several types.
AT-4 Anti tank RCL (bought 1987-)
Carl-Gustav multi purpouse RCL (bought 1955-, several versions)
Gas masks
Uniforms
Helmet (steel)
Backpack
Webbing

Armed forces economy:
The armed forces have a budget of 15 billion ducats, this budget is divided in the following way.
Personel costs: 6 billion
Operation costs: 5 billion (exercises and upkeep of machines/houses)
Procurement: 6 billion

A full time military employee costs in average 4000dc/month.
A civilian employee costs in average 3000dc/month.
A conscript costs 500dc/month.

Eutopian military command structure:
The highest military personel is the chiefs of the 3 different branches of the military which form the Eutopian military counsel.
The members of that counsel are Lt generals (army and airforce) and a vice Admiral, they are choosen by their predecessors with parlimentary approval only generals(not brigadeers) or admirals can be choosen. Their term is 3 months after which they have to choose a sucessor.
A branch chief can only be removed if the President and at least 8 members of parliment agrees.

Eutopian ranks:
Army/airforce:
Lt General
Mj General
Brigadeer General
Colonel
Lt Colonel
Major
Captain
1st Lt
2nd Lt
Cadet
Warrant officer
Staff sergeant
Sergeant
Corporal
Lance Corporal

Navy:
Vice Admiral
Rear Admiral
Commodore
Captain
Commander
Lt Commander
Sub Lt
Cadet
Midshipman
Fleet chief petty officer
Chief petty officer
Petty officer

 

[System Lord]

Okay thats all done. Let it begin!

 

[Kurek]

Ah, finally lets upgrade this 1970's army of ours!
The boys back at base are getting annoyed with our Vietnam era airforce.
Hopefully we can sort something out here.

I'll be writing up my sugestions for reform later, until then...

The Colonel leans back in his chair and lights a cigar, waiting for others to arrive and place there proposals

 

[unmerged(10239)]

Its a shame I was too apathetic to get this done myself when I was MDIA . This will be an interesting discussion.

 

[HJ Tulp]

Originally posted by Kurek
Ah, finally lets upgrade this 1970's army of ours!
The boys back at base are getting annoyed with our Vietnam era airforce.
Hopefully we can sort something out here.

I'll be writing up my sugestions for reform later, until then...

The Colonel leans back in his chair and lights a cigar, waiting for others to arrive and place there proposals

Upgrade the Airforce? What for? For that bunch of upstart flyboys? We need a Navy to rule the seas

[ooc: just starting some interbranche rivalry ]

 

[peo]

We need tanks.
And lots of em.
As Guderian said, If the tanks work victory will follow.

Firstly we need to look into the flexibility of the armed forces and our international engagements.

Right now we are using a organization that dates back to the end of the last war.
Also the sheer number of officers and NCO's are staggering considering the number of conscripts trained each year.

One pro for our light non mechinized forces is that they should be easy to deploy over seas if needed...

 

[HJ Tulp]

The Navy needs everything except the Carriers new. New Destroyers, new Frigates, new subs, new planes and new landing ships. We can buy Carriers from the US. Kitty Hawkclass or something like that.
A nuke will do also

 

[Kurek]

What do you navy types no about anything? As world war II prooved Airpower is the way, and the 1st Gulf War was won after a month of air bombardment.

Here is what I want.

Abolishment of Conscription, best to have a smaller well trained professional armed force than a reserve of moderatley trained troops.
Our pilots need more training, and better equipment to train!

Mothballing of most of our airforces, we need modern equipment gentlemen, F-16's the Yanks make thousands of them and ship them off to hundreds of countrys, we need some.
We have limited to none tactical and strategic planes, We got the A-10, good for soft targest and such, the F-16 could fill part of the tactical role, but we need specialised bombers.

The Naval Airforce, as you navy bunch have shown you dont care about the air, look what happened to the Yanks in the Pacific! The Japs slaughtered them from the air, so the Yanks quickly realised there mistakes and adopted a more air approach to things, So I propiose that the air branch of the Navy come under the Airforce's wing.
We need a couple of those big Carriers those Yanks got, and some F-14's to patrol our coast, and who better to see that they do the job right? thats right, us!

So what do we need? Well I'll make a small list, and Im sure I can find more to add...

1) Scrapping most of our airforce, the F-5',s F-8's and A4's are ancient now, we need F-16's lots of em, and that new Eurofighter, looks good and we cant go on buying all the equipment off the yanks now can we...
We also need tactical and strategic planes, and the capability to develope and deploy cruise missile techonology.
We need updated patroll planes, the E-3 hawkeye would do well here, we need specialist jet training, we need modern training schools and training on modern tactics.
There isnt a lot we DONT need!

2)Aboloshing conscription
Come on now, were a modern 21st century nation and we Still use WW1 style conscription! We need to promote and train a full time professional army, yeah we will have a smaller army, but do we really need the giant reserve we have? I doubt it, A small well trained force would be more efficient.

3)The Naval Airfleet come under the Airforces power.
Yeah sure, we know how to handle planes best, lets keep all planes under one administration, the Carriers can be under joint Airforce and Navy control.

Well, this is only the tip of the iceburg...

 

[unmerged(286)]

How many men would all you gentlemen see in a permanent, professional army, notwithstanding reserve?

 

[Kurek]

Well it depends, what is the greatest threat to this nation? I imagine a armed forces a lot smaller than we have now, but a better trained and equiped armed forces that is flexible and can adapt to whatever situation developes.
We dont need a large poorly trained poorly equiped armed force, look at Iraq, back in the 1990's they had the 4th largest army in the world, but they were poorly trained and ill equiped and they got destoryed in the Gulf War...

 

[HJ Tulp]

Absurdly, simply absurdly.
Some Colonel comes telling the CJCS what to do.
Allright fly boy. Your approach might be good if we would own all the money in the world but we don't.
I totally agree with abolishing conscription. Every modern army is professional. Your first idea isn't that good. We can save money by buying F-18's. THere's a naval version of that one as well an thus we would save money.
Your third proposal is even worse. It's ABSOLUTELY out of the question that the naval airwing would fall under the Airforce. You give the Yanks as example? Does the USN have a naval wing? Yes they do. You want us to have Nimitz class carrier's? WHo's gonna give them? Santa Claus? DO you have any idea how much those things cost?



[ooc: ]

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

(you will of course allow parliament, at least some interested parliament in? )

 

[Kurek]

(OCC posted most of that just to provoke reaction time for more I see )

I didnt say the Yanks had everything right!
F-16s are one of the worlds most popular airplanes, most Western countries operate them, and F/A 18s would cost even more!

We need a broad selection of aircraft.

Okay okay, why dont we just abolish the naval fleet? do we even need carriers in the first place? Our navy should just be there to protect our coastline, The airforce is capable of that task, some Nimrods and some F-14's operating from land bases, we are not a naval power and I doubt we ever will be, the airforce is the way foward!

 

[HJ Tulp]

Lt. General Hartwell.
THe promotion of this man to Colonel, was it a joke?
Abolish the fleet? Why not the Airforce, the Army or the whole Military?
We are no Air power and I doubt we ever will be. You need carriers to strike around the globe and a fleet to protect it, the good thing about a fleet is that it can be used for all sorts of things.
Buying planes isn't buying Nikes shoes, it's not about buying something popular it's about buying what fit's best.

 

[Kurek]

And the F-16's, F/A-18's are the best, which is prooven by the ammount of countries that purchase them.

Yes I was going too far with the Navy, but I still think that the land army and airforce is more important, The Navy drains way too much up of the budget as it is, updating and building new ships will cost a fortune.

Maybe we need to scale down out military, we need to make it smaller and more modern, we cannot maintain a large military force and also modernise, we must compromise, we need to establish a priority of things...

So I suggest that we create a list of threats, anyone care to start?

 

[unmerged(286)]

Gentlemen, let's keep this civil.

Whereas it is not my field of predilection, I would side with Col. Hayes on the issue of aircraft carriers. The ones we have now are obsolete and ought to be scrapped, and buying new ones would be foolish. We have no need for a global strike force. The same goes for the outlandish proposition of acquiring nuclear weaponry.

It is with this thought that I propose the following groundwork for the Eutopian Armed Forces :

Our conventional forces' primary and sole objective should be the defense of every square inch of Eutopia. The plan proposal I have begun elaborating for the Land Army is based around control of the railroad network, the quickest and most developed transit network of Eutopia. Unit headquarters would be situated at major rail junctions in Douglas, Villeneuve, Châteauvallon, Sable, Capistrano, San Martin de Porres, Supreme Command resting evidently in Eutopia City.

This organization is based on the idea that the Land Army be spread around the island in a way in which no enemy could land unopposed, yet still giving it the mobility to quickly concentrate forces where they are needed (in order to support the units present in the area the invading army landed).

Since the railroad network does not reach absolutely all regions of Eutopia, auxiliary units will need to be utilized to supplement the regular army. Mountaineer units, for example, ought to maintain a presence in all of the western mountain range area that is isolated from railways; and Navy Marine units would pay the Army a great service if they could ensure the defense of all islands surrounding Eutopia, as well as coastal towns isolated from the railroad network.

This leaves the size of the Land Army to discuss, subject on which I am still waiting for your suggestions, sirs. By my first calculations, we would need to keep at the very least four divisions of 15,000 men (a better situation would be five divisions) standing permanently, for a total of 75,000 to 80,000 men.

-Mj. Bartoleme Adál, 112. Armoured Regiment

 

[System Lord]

Colonel Haynes has my full support as a voice for the Air Force, but before you navy types get too uptight just remember that I'm in command of our Air Force and not the Colonel.

Mr. Lundgren no civlians without security access are allowed in this meeting. Only the President has such clearance.

Let us begin by discussing the nature of the threat posed to Eutopia by other nations. Once we have established this we can better discuss the upgrades. See task 5 at the top of the thread.

Once we have our 'Defense White Paper' in order we can go forward. Major Adal raises some interesting points on the threats to Eutopia perhaps they merit discussion here. Also don't forget task 4 for the formation of a counter terrorist unit. Terrorism also falls under the threat analysis.

Lt. General Hartwell Chief of Air Force

OOC can everyone sign there posts with their rank and name please, it make it easier.

 

[peo]

The first thing we need it to know the task of the military.
If it is to only defend our own island then a conscription based military is fully adequate and well trained enough.
If we are to have an active security policy then we need a professional core at least.

I think that the airforce and navy should be professional and 1/3 of the army (1 army corps).
The rest of the army (2 army corps) would be a reserve similar to the US national guard. Altough not under any local control.

When it comes to the planes the primary job of them is to attain air superiority over the battlefield. Not go around bombing the enemy. We have arty and helicopters for that.
To safe money mainly in training we should have 1 type of plane.
One that can be used as both ground based air superiority and based on carriers.

This limits our choices to the f-18 and the rafaele and later on the f-35 which isn't in service yet.