Prison

[Frozen Fallout]

My suggestion is to allow all Ethos access to Slavery by adding an extra Species Rights and a building call Prison.

New Species Rights (Any Ethos can select and is considered Slavery for all game mechanics):

• False Citizenship: This represents targeted imprisonment due to specific laws created in your society that target this species. False Citizenship pops have all rights of a Full Citizenship Pop but can also be placed on a Prison Building. Pops in prisons create large amounts of unrest on planets to represent the "Crime" increase that is created by these laws.

New Building:

Prison: Building gives large amounts of Energy, Minerals, and Social Science. Pop must be part of the False Citizenship Species Rights group to be place on a Prison building.
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http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/gilmoreprisonslavery.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States

Above is a links to an interesting articles about the connections between Slavery and Prison. I would argue that any government with any Ethos can use penal labor as a type of slavery for profit.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

False Citizenship: This represents targeted imprisonment due to specific laws created in your society that target this species. False Citizenship pops have all rights of a Full Citizenship Pop but can also be placed on a Prison Building. Pops in prisons create large amounts of unrest on planets to represent the "Crime" increase that is created by these laws.

Wouldn't this just be limited citizenship? Honestly I don't see the point of this addition.

Prison: Building gives large amounts of Energy, Minerals, and Social Science. Pop must be part of the False Citizenship Species Rights group to be place on a Prison building.

Why would prisons give energy or science? Sure minerals maybe but even if your experimenting on the prisoners I don't think that would really give that much useful information.

Above is a links to an interesting articles about the connections between Slavery and Prison. I would argue that any government with any Ethos can use penal labor as a type of slavery for profit.

Those links could count for minerals but I just don't see why this would make any sense for energy or science, both resources generated by very specialized jobs that I would associate with Prison labor.


I just don't think that it really would add that much and its balance would be suspect.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Hmmm... no, there's not really a perfect way to get this effect with the current mechanics. You can establish a caste system and on your core worlds and generally put xenos to work as miners and farmers. But that requires authoritarianism. You can establish them as limited citizens, but all that does is let you spend less minerals on their maintenance and ban them from holding leadership positions, it wouldn't really give you the exploitation you're looking for.

This really becomes a question of, is this mechanic going to make the game better and is this a distinction that makes sense for the developers to make?

Considering this is a game where it is possible to conquer an alien civilization and turn them all into livestock or work them to death in camps on one end of the spectrum, and where on the other end you can provide all of your people a direct say in all parts of government and pamper your people into a sense of false utopia and utter euphoria. Does this game's social policy scale have room in it for "corrupt prisons designed to exploit cheap labor" vs. "idyllic prisons that focus on rehabilitation and treatment?"

 

[Frozen Fallout]

The idea I had behind the energy was more money then power. The idea behind social science was the idea behind Mental Health/Social experiments that happend due to laws but I can see your point dropping these two from the building might be better for balance.

Mainly I disagree that Slavery is only allowed in Xenophobic or Authoritarian ethics. Although Slavery as we call it now isn't allowed, we still have it today in the form of Penal Labor.

 

[Frozen Fallout]

Might also just be better as a Mod then an actual feature. Just kinda throwing this out there to see what people think about the idea.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Might also just be better as a Mod then an actual feature. Just kinda throwing this out there to see what people think about the idea.

I think that would be best, and it's not inherently a bad idea I just don't see the point or how it does the job better than existing (in Banks that is) systems.

 

[Frozen Fallout]

I think that would be best, and it's not inherently a bad idea I just don't see the point or how it does the job better than existing (in Banks that is) systems.

I think it could open up traits like Decadent to all ethos since all can have slavery. It also allows for more facets of social controls that are created in society that are more controversial. It also can create mauls between Pacifist, Xenophiles and all other ethos to have reason to disagree and war with each other.

Just because me and you are Pacifists I disagree with your policy of imprisonment.

 

[extrapancake]

Every slaver makes some palatable justifications for what they do, doesnt make sense to model them all in game. I do wish they would let every ethos enslave at varying efficiencies but i think it made too many problems for game balance.

 

[faljen_isus]

prison planets yea, but this...

 

[The Founder]

My suggestion is to allow all Ethos access to Slavery by adding an extra Species Rights and a building call Prison.

New Species Rights (Any Ethos can select and is considered Slavery for all game mechanics):

• False Citizenship: This represents targeted imprisonment due to specific laws created in your society that target this species. False Citizenship pops have all rights of a Full Citizenship Pop but can also be placed on a Prison Building. Pops in prisons create large amounts of unrest on planets to represent the "Crime" increase that is created by these laws.

New Building:

Prison: Building gives large amounts of Energy, Minerals, and Social Science. Pop must be part of the False Citizenship Species Rights group to be place on a Prison building.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/gilmoreprisonslavery.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States

Above is a links to an interesting articles about the connections between Slavery and Prison. I would argue that any government with any Ethos can use penal labor as a type of slavery for profit.

You just applied headcanon to existing slavery systems.

Slaves are enslaved because it is the law.
If you target large populations for Imprisionment - and improsionment means forced Servitude - people will just act as if you were running Caste System (of the proper type). Because you ARE doing it.
You name it differently. But it is Chattel Slavery or Domestic Servitude.

 

[TheShah]

i want "penal colony" planets were everyone relocated there is automatically "incarcerated" (*Cough *cough enslaved) regardless of species rights. Of course you can't also have Free Migration only.

 

[Frozen Fallout]

You just applied headcanon to existing slavery systems.

Slaves are enslaved because it is the law.
If you target large populations for Imprisionment - and improsionment means forced Servitude - people will just act as if you were running Caste System (of the proper type). Because you ARE doing it.
You name it differently. But it is Chattel Slavery or Domestic Servitude.

I feel there is a large difference between Chattel Slavery/Domestic Servitude and what I am now think I might try to create a mod for (Probably to controversial to actually be in an official patch while not adding enough), in that all pops that work anything but Prisons are free and all ethics would have access.

Currently it feels like you have good vs bad with Ethos with some neutral. However there is no hard limit for the "bad" Ethos like Xenophobe from being good and giving full citizenship to all Xenos or for Authoritarians from not allowing Slavery and giving AI full rights. They take hits for doing some of these things but it allows them to be played a bit grey with in the mechanics. The "good" ethos like Xenophile has more hard limits and cant really be Evil at all. Every "Evil" act is hard blocked. I don't feel this is realistic but understand there needs to be mechanics that work to create balance with these things. To a degree Im just more of a soft block kinda person (like happiness hits and diplomatic penalties) then completely blocking a play style out. Soft "caps" however do need more complicated balances to make them work, then just hard blocking it out. However it does seem like the game is moving in the direction of locking you out of a path and making you have to make a choice.

I don't think Chattel Slavery/Domestic Servitude should be accessible to all ethos but something more limited should be, mostly because thats the way it actually is. Slavery is accepted by most first world countries today but they just call it Penal Labor. Not all do it, some just target a group of people some target everyone but for the most part its acceptable for any country (or Ethos) to do it but it comes with negatives politically, diplomatically, and socially but its do able.

 

[The Founder]

i want "penal colony" planets were everyone relocated there is automatically "incarcerated" (*Cough *cough enslaved) regardless of species rights. Of course you can't also have Free Migration only.

Put only mines and farms on those "penal colonies." Slaves can always be resetteled anyway.

I feel there is a large difference between Chattel Slavery/Domestic Servitude and what I am now think I might try to create a mod for (Probably to controversial to actually be in an official patch while not adding enough), in that all pops that work anything but Prisons are free and all ethics would have access.

Energy and Science bonus is easy: Domestic Servitude.

DS buffs free pops happines. Wich thus buffs their production of Energy and Science.
I think it being used like that might be the point of DS in the first place: All happiness does for poor happiness pops is reduce unrest (it might produce less unrest from the slaves too, but otherwise does not affect them).
What it does for good happiness free pops is increased production - wich is everything a slave can not work.

The Faction rework has serious ramifications for what Happiness/Slavery means and is used for in the new Meta. You can not think of it the same way you did in 1.4, as a way to avoid Factions.
Slaves can not join factions, so thier base happiness is 50% - slavery penalties. They do get Egalitarian Atraction, but that does not mater until they are freed. If DS gives less penalty for Slavery on top of the increased happiness for non-slaves it might actually have a point.