Priorities and problems (naval invasions and transportation)

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Tisifoni12

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I wish I understood better how the AI prioritises; or perhaps I don't but just want it improved. I see Axis and Allied convoys sailing past each other round the Iberian peninsula, Crazy. Is this a failure of the AI to prioritise from of its options, to do a cost v benefits analysis. For Italy it might be cool to add East and South Africa to its empire, but for Italy its priority is surely to a) defend Italy, b) expand its control of the Mediterranean, c) contribute to Axis fronts in Eastern or Western Europe. Only after these would expansion south into Africa or sending troops to the far east feature among Italy's priorities. The costs of sending any forces to Ethiopia / Eritrea / Somalia from Italy / Libya unless Egypt and Sudan are under Italian control should remove that as a choice.

Naval invasions would not be undertaken unless they have a good chance of success. What capacity does the invader have to move troops, land them and support them once ashore. At present the Allies will make repeated attempts, most doomed to failure. Historically most landings were successful. Dieppe an exception to success was more a raid in force, from which lessons were learned. The Japanese developed purpose designed landing craft I think before anyone else and similar craft were developed by the British and Americans. At Gallipoli in WW1 the British had landing ships, which are rather different and 'whale' boats.

Unless landing into friendly and undisputed territory (e.g. British landings in Norway) then landings at Level 1 should be rare and risky (e.g. German forces attempting to land in Crete in impressed caiques, landings from WW1 type landing vessels as at Gallipoli, the adapted barges that the Germans were assembling ready for an invasion of England in 1940).

The British didn't attempt landings until the US had entered the war. Perhaps the British might attempt some small enterprise requiring limited resources, for example the liberation of Rhodes, but no landings on the continent of Europe without the US. I've posted elsewhere suggestions about level 2 and 3; numbers of divisions and supply.

I've done Seelowe once and was surprised at how easy it was once I got forces ashore. Of course supply wasn't an issue, no being cut off from supplies of ammunition by the Royal Navy reclaiming the channel. The other thing was the naval fight, which would IRL have lasted hours, but dragged on for days, weeks. Land battles in WW2 can last days, weeks, as can air campaigns. Sea battle however would last hours, perhaps a day or so. And interdicted invasion fleets would either press on unaffected, or more probably return to port.

What's the first rule of a naval invasion ?

SURPRISE !
 

Tisifoni12

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Suggested modifications to the naval invasion 'levels':
  • Level 1 (Gallipoli or adapted / impressed shipping): Up to 5 divisions in first wave and armour and motorised / mechanised excluded (maybe only support companies of artillery).
  • Level 2 (landing craft): Up to 5 divisions in the first wave including light armour and motorised.
  • Level 3 (Improved technology and logistics): Again 5 or perhaps 10 divisions in the first wave including armour and mechanised*
* This would facilitate Normandy as two invasions, a British invasion with 7 divisions and brigades and a separate American invasion with 3 divisions or a joint invasion with 10 divisions and brigades.

The other differences should be in:
  • how effectively the invading force can assault
  • how quickly and effectively further troops can be brought ashore (e.g. efficient systems for transferring troops from an assembly area to the landing area, for example from North Africa to Sicily)
  • how quickly and efficiently the beachhead can be supplied with fuel, food, ammunition etc.
At level 3 Mulberry type harbours and Pluto pipeline (the rapid building of a port in a liberated 'tile').
At level 2 efficient transfer systems for unloading supplies from shipping to landing craft and landing craft to beach.
At level 1 inefficient transfer of limited supplies until control of a port can be established.
 
Last edited:

Khevenhuller

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Suggested modifications to the naval invasion 'levels':
  • Level 1 (Gallipoli or adapted / impressed shipping): Up to 5 divisions in first wave and armour and motorised / mechanised excluded (maybe only support companies of artillery).
  • Level 2 (landing craft): Up to 5 divisions in the first wave including light armour and motorised.
  • Level 3 (Improved technology and logistics): Again 5 or perhaps 10 divisions in the first wave including armour and mechanised*
* This would facilitate Normandy as two invasions, a British invasion with 7 divisions and brigades and a separate American invasion with 3 divisions or a joint invasion with 10 divisions and brigades.

The other differences should be in:
  • how effectively the invading force can assault
  • how quickly and effectively further troops can be brought ashore (e.g. efficient systems for transferring
  • how quickly and efficiently the beachhead can be supplied with fuel, food, ammunition etc.
At level 3 Mulberry type harbours and Pluto pipeline (the rapid building of a port in a liberated 'tile').
At level 2 efficient transfer systems for unloading supplies from shipping to landing craft and landing craft to beach.
At level 1 inefficient transfer of limited supplies until control of a port can be established.


On the first day, at Normandy, no armoured divisions. Just DD tanks and the various 'funnies' from 79th Armoured (the US refused to consider this type of vehicle other than DD). Not sure you would want to include tanks in any amphibious first wave operation. Gallipoli would be...interesting. I would look at the German plans for Sealion as the basic level. The amount of troops should, in teory, by limited by your amphibious shipping capability: something that was a real limiting factor to the western allies but is not even remotely an issue in HOI as convoys do everything.

(That said, in the Pacific, the USMC got 'heavier' with armoured amphib stuff, which could be done through the division builder by adding light tanks to a marine div).

1) How effectively the amphibious force can assault. A very good point, and a missing link from doctrinal development. The Germans planning for Sealion were very concerned that they were going to be on the beach for so long as their real metier was what they termed 'mobile operations'. A recognition that amph ops were not done by marines alone, and that you should be able to train infantry and motorised to undertake them too.
2) This is partially a shipping question. Have you the ability to quickly and effectively transfer supplies? If you just have freighters taken up from trade then it will be a slow process. Doctrinally, do you have an organisation like the Royal Navy Commandos who are on the beach with the first wave to manage the beach (see Kenneth More in 'The Longest Day')?
3) A bit tough this, as you can supply Normandy from Britain far easier than you can supply Iwo Jima from, well, anywhere really. One approach is to have a separate doctrinal or kit concept dealing with off-shore supply. How much can you take with you?
 

Tisifoni12

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Scale, planning and experience all are factors. The bigger the operation, the more training and planning involved the scale of the logistical support required. A single USMC division with experience, equipped with Amtraks, assaulting an island in the Pacific is a different prospect to five infantry divisions landing in Italy or France as the first stage of an invasion / liberation of all or part of continental Europe. Perhaps the preparation / training times should be extended and the potential success of the operation amended to reflect that ?

Other than the beach assaults using Higgins Boats or their equivalents the landing operations of WW2 were:
  • The British intervention in Norway which seems to have involved landing at Norwegian ports.
  • The German invasion of Norway, where infantry were transported on destroyers and then used presumably a variety of ships boats to get ashore. Again the focus was on initially seizing ports.
  • For Sealion the Germans were going to use modified barges. I remember seeing a documentary in which a veteran of the preparations described how they experimentally attached a framework to the back of a barge and attached an aircraft engine. I think the idea was that the barges would be towed across the channel and this engine would be used in the final approach. The guy said it had permanently damaged his hearing (maybe I should have put that last sentence in CAPS).
  • I believe the Germans considered invading Crete using a 'fleet' of impressed caique (fishing boats) in addition to the paratroop and glider forces used in the air assault (saw this information I think at the Battle of Crete gallery in the museum at Chania). I think this was abandoned as the RN presence was too dangerous.
In The Longest Day Kenneth More played Colin Maud who was a Commander in the Royal Navy, not a commando: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Maud

Wonderful picture here of a WW1 type landing ship at Gallipoli: http://www.britishbattles.com/the-g...t-cape-helles-and-y-beach-on-25th-april-1915/
 

Khevenhuller

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Scale, planning and experience all are factors. The bigger the operation, the more training and planning involved the scale of the logistical support required. A single USMC division with experience, equipped with Amtraks, assaulting an island in the Pacific is a different prospect to five infantry divisions landing in Italy or France as the first stage of an invasion / liberation of all or part of continental Europe. Perhaps the preparation / training times should be extended and the potential success of the operation amended to reflect that ?

Other than the beach assaults using Higgins Boats or their equivalents the landing operations of WW2 were:
  • The British intervention in Norway which seems to have involved landing at Norwegian ports.
  • The German invasion of Norway, where infantry were transported on destroyers and then used presumably a variety of ships boats to get ashore. Again the focus was on initially seizing ports.
  • For Sealion the Germans were going to use modified barges. I remember seeing a documentary in which a veteran of the preparations described how they experimentally attached a framework to the back of a barge and attached an aircraft engine. I think the idea was that the barges would be towed across the channel and this engine would be used in the final approach. The guy said it had permanently damaged his hearing (maybe I should have put that last sentence in CAPS).
  • I believe the Germans considered invading Crete using a 'fleet' of impressed caique (fishing boats) in addition to the paratroop and glider forces used in the air assault (saw this information I think at the Battle of Crete gallery in the museum at Chania). I think this was abandoned as the RN presence was too dangerous.
In The Longest Day Kenneth More played Colin Maud who was a Commander in the Royal Navy, not a commando: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Maud

Wonderful picture here of a WW1 type landing ship at Gallipoli: http://www.britishbattles.com/the-g...t-cape-helles-and-y-beach-on-25th-april-1915/


I know he played Maud, and maybe I should confess I have a Phd in Amphibious Warfare...

Landing at Norwegian ports was the ideal solution (indeed, in the Cold War that was also the function of the RM). Maud was in a unit called the Royal Naval Commandos...look up the unit. It was abolished after the war, and duties subsumed by the RM. But, during the war it had the job of 'running' the beach and directing landing craft to areas away from mines or congestion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Naval_Commandos

You have probably seen the Sealion documentary I have with the deaf old boy talking about how suicidal it all seemed. It's worthwhile getting hold of 'Invasion 1940' by Peter Fleming (which has been reprinted under another title) and 'Operation Sea Lion' by Ronald Wheatley which is the UK publication of a lot of captured German planning documents. It was not just fussy old apple barges with the front cut off, but also freighters, motor boats and even fishing smacks from the Baltic and heaven knows what in a real spatchcock fleet. They placed emphasis on a very early capture of a port. Hardly surprising given the circumstances...

The Crete operation was a catastrophe from the naval point of view. The first wave was intercepted at night and was scattered with some caiques sunk. The second was intercepted in the early morning and was not as heavily damaged because of the caution of Rear Admiral King. Both failed to make a landing except one, whose occupants were all captured.

If you are going to effectively model amphibious assaults then you need to effectively model the landing ships. I am not sure HOI is really set up for that degree of granularity.

K
 

Tisifoni12

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Landings have to be abstracted, but with production at the level of individual tanks, aircraft, etc. then it seems reasonable to also produce Higgins Boats, Amtraks, etc. or a unit of capability, like enough for a battalion.

Currently naval invasions are abstracted, which is okay, but the abstraction could be done better. Larger scale 'higher level' invasions would possibly take longer to plan. Rather than increasing the number of divisions*, increase the assault capability of the assault wave and perhaps have designate divisions in an assembly area which will reinforce once the landing zone is secured.

* Moving 40 divisions ashore could make sense if it was a turn based system (like1 turn = 1 month) but not for the Clauswitz engine.
 

Khevenhuller

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Landings have to be abstracted, but with production at the level of individual tanks, aircraft, etc. then it seems reasonable to also produce Higgins Boats, Amtraks, etc. or a unit of capability, like enough for a battalion.

Currently naval invasions are abstracted, which is okay, but the abstraction could be done better. Larger scale 'higher level' invasions would possibly take longer to plan. Rather than increasing the number of divisions*, increase the assault capability of the assault wave and perhaps have designate divisions in an assembly area which will reinforce once the landing zone is secured.

* Moving 40 divisions ashore could make sense if it was a turn based system (like1 turn = 1 month) but not for the Clauswitz engine.


Well, from a purely 'professional' point of view I would love the intricacies of amphibious operations to be reflected. But, as i keep coming back to, when a game cannot get the PM of Australia correct then it's a long way to get to LCT/LST and so on plus the doctrines...

K
 

Tisifoni12

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Planning and other factors:
  • Size of invasion force: logistics
  • Anticipated defences: the more complex the defences the more time taken to gather intelligence*
  • Times and tides: invading from an ocean or an 'open' sea there will be times when the tides, weather, etc. will be better, in an inland sea where tides are negligible planning and timing will tend to be easier. If the one day later window hadn't been there for overlord it would have been postponed for weeks; I don't imagine the timing was quite so critical for Salerno or Anzio.
  • Transport: constrained by a limited number of Higgins boats, Amtracks, Daihatsu Landing Craft.
* If you're invading occupied friendly territory and / or have air superiority and / or have an effective spy network (Overlord) then you have more detail than if not (Seelöwe) and your operation has more chance of success, but will take longer to plan.