Principality/Duchy of Kiev

[MiniaAr]

+1, more playable nations at the start is always nice and it seems to be historical.

I think I agree. If Bourbonnais, Orleanais & Co. are French vassals at game start, Kiev could be a Lithuanian vassal in 1444 as well, since the OP provided actual agruments to do just so.

I don't think that either RM or Historical Friends modifiers are needed, this would railroad it a bit much.

 

[generalolaf]

I love these kinds of posts opening my eyes to a little piece of history I had no idea existed. Anyway, your proposal seems fully warranted. Only gameplay-problem I can see, is that supposing the PU between Poland and Lithuania happen Poland will end up having it's diplorelations almost entirely taken up by subjects. But surely this is a minor issue.

No more than France does. And Pol-Lit is a little bit too powerful in this patch anyway.

 

[Sachko]

French student in ukrainian history over here, I guarantee that OP's history is absolutely bullshit-safe.

And gameplay-wise, it would be interesting, for any states in central / eastern Europe.

One question though ; which provinces ?

 

[generalolaf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Voivodeship was the successor within the Pol-Lit state, there's a map there which may be of help.

 

[Sachko]

I think I could get you some maps, or administrative texts about this.
I'll post them here.

 

[Lundgreen]

- it would add playable Kiev in 1444, your Captain Obvious.

Give this man a cookie!

 

[Sachko]

I don't have much more than a crappy lithuanian map for now, but it's from the XVIth century,where Kyiv is just a part of Lithuania, but we're getting closer.

http://briedis.eu/out/pictures/z1/ldk2(1)_z1.png

The one on the left.

 

[zdlugasz]

The idea is nice, anyway, barring human intervention, most vassals are annexed in short order, so not much will change.

The other argument about ironman game is incorrect, since in 1.9 we will be allowed to play released vassals in Ironman mode.

 

[Nihtantuel]

With that logics you can make Lithuania look like HRE with revoked privilegia, because of its administrative division. That's what you are mistaking: principality as an administrative entity and principality as a state-like entity (doesn't matter vassal or not). And frankly, the same can be done for every somewhat big country in Europe. In 1444 Europe is still somewhat of CKII-looking. So the question here is why exactly Kiev and not, say, Leon? Hell if I'd like to see this. So your proposal makes no sense whatsoever neither from historical nor from the gameplay point of view.

 

[IIWW]

With that logics you can make Lithuania look like HRE with revoked privilegia, because of its administrative division.

You mean like France, or, to some extent, Russia?

 

[unmerged(652342)]

With that logics you can make Lithuania look like HRE with revoked privilegia, because of its administrative division. That's what you are mistaking: principality as an administrative entity and principality as a state-like entity (doesn't matter vassal or not). And frankly, the same can be done for every somewhat big country in Europe. In 1444 Europe is still somewhat of CKII-looking. So the question here is why exactly Kiev and not, say, Leon? Hell if I'd like to see this. So your proposal makes no sense whatsoever neither from historical nor from the gameplay point of view.

- yep, im too think that hre and france should start with all vassals integrated. I dont see how dis-united france and hre helps gameplay or makes sense from historical pov.

 

[Nihtantuel]

You mean like France, or, to some extent, Russia?

No, its different. Consider Muscovy. Muscovy in 1444 has vassal state-like principalities, like Yaroslavl, and non state-like administrative principalities, like, say, Vologda. In EU4 terms the first one is a legit tag, the second one is just a part of Muscovy.
Same applies for Lithuania. It had vassal-like dependencies in the Oka basin but it isn't even on the map. Nothing else. Kiev was just a principality on the level of administrative division.

 

[Zak Preston]

BTW adding HRE-like mechanics to some decentralized states could add a lot of fun to EU4

 

[oblio-]

The idea is nice, anyway, barring human intervention, most vassals are annexed in short order, so not much will change.

It will make Lithuania slightly weaker, therefore Poland would be slightly weaker. And most people agree that Poland is too strong in this patch.

 

[Sachko]

With that logics you can make Lithuania look like HRE with revoked privilegia, because of its administrative division. That's what you are mistaking: principality as an administrative entity and principality as a state-like entity (doesn't matter vassal or not). And frankly, the same can be done for every somewhat big country in Europe. In 1444 Europe is still somewhat of CKII-looking. So the question here is why exactly Kiev and not, say, Leon? Hell if I'd like to see this. So your proposal makes no sense whatsoever neither from historical nor from the gameplay point of view.

The point is ; we're not sure at all. Gameplay wise, if Kiev had a short vassal-like movement, after angry peasants revolts, etc, before being reincorporated into Lit, it would make sense.
But if it was just a ' +x% local autonomy ' granted by Lithuania to calm the orthodox plebs, indeed, it would be nonsense to add it as a vassal.

This little subject is interesting, and if you know more about it, share it ! I'll ask historians about this.

__
France with integrated vassals at the start would be utterly dull & retarded, though.
Both historically and gameplay wise.

 

[giant_sloth]

Yes, Olelko indeed. I now remember him from the history lessons. How could I have forgotten? Kyiv should TOTALLY be a vassal in 1444 start!

 

[unmerged(652342)]

Yes, Olelko indeed. I now remember him from the history lessons. How could I have forgotten? Kyiv should TOTALLY be a vassal in 1444 start!

- Alas, poor Olelko. I knew him Kazimierz - a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

 

[Nihtantuel]

The point is ; we're not sure at all. Gameplay wise, if Kiev had a short vassal-like movement, after angry peasants revolts, etc, before being reincorporated into Lit, it would make sense.
But if it was just a ' +x% local autonomy ' granted by Lithuania to calm the orthodox plebs, indeed, it would be nonsense to add it as a vassal.

This little subject is interesting, and if you know more about it, share it ! I'll ask historians about this.

__
France with integrated vassals at the start would be utterly dull & retarded, though.
Both historically and gameplay wise.

Once again you are missing the point entirely. I am now writing it for the third time. There are state-like principalities. Tver, for example, or Yaroslavl. And there are principalities for administrative purposes. In Muscovy those were called 'udel'. They are principalities by name but they do not posses any attribute of a sovereign country (again: vassal or not doesn't matter). Those are just administrative divisions of a feudal country. French vassals in 1444 are state-like principalities/duchies, not parts of France. Kiev in Lithuania or Vologda in Muscovy are also principalities, but administrative ones. Those are just administrative divisions of a feudal country. You can come up with similar list of rulers for each and every one of those. Because they had rulers, obviously. This doesn't mean those were states per se. United Kingdom now is divided into counties. Can you say that those are all vassals of UK? Of course not, that's just an administrative division, despite the name county suggesting there should be a count ruling and so on. Same applies here.

I come from the Eastern Europe myself. This stuff is taught well in the history classes at least in my country. Not sure about Ukraine, all nationalism aside. This is the 6th grade information i am writing here. 3rd time now.

 

[MiniaAr]

Once again you are missing the point entirely. I am now writing it for the third time. There are state-like principalities. Tver, for example, or Yaroslavl. And there are principalities for administrative purposes. In Muscovy those were called 'udel'. They are principalities by name but they do not posses any attribute of a sovereign country (again: vassal or not doesn't matter). Those are just administrative divisions of a feudal country. French vassals in 1444 are state-like principalities/duchies, not parts of France. Kiev in Lithuania or Vologda in Muscovy are also principalities, but administrative ones. Those are just administrative divisions of a feudal country. You can come up with similar list of rulers for each and every one of those. Because they had rulers, obviously. This doesn't mean those were states per se. United Kingdom now is divided into counties. Can you say that those are all vassals of UK? Of course not, that's just an administrative division, despite the name county suggesting there should be a count ruling and so on. Same applies here.

I come from the Eastern Europe myself. This stuff is taught well in the history classes at least in my country. Not sure about Ukraine, all nationalism aside. This is the 6th grade information i am writing here. 3rd time now.

Well except that French vassals at game start are not all state-like principalties/duchies. For example, Orléans really was a part of France, given to a relative of the king (in 1444, it would be ruled by Charles I of Orléans, cousin of the king of France, Charles VII).

 

[Sachko]

There is no need to be upset, mate. I also understood your point, and asked for details.
Every hellhole, every village is independent to a certain degree, but we weren't speaking about this.
As brilliant as we may be, we frenchmen don't know about all peasant rebellions in eastern Europe, as interesting and
hilarious as they may be.


This one could have granted a special status to the principalty, who was then revoked in 1471 as he said.
Gimme some sources about the Geminas, I want concrete stuff.