Principality/Duchy of Kiev

[YuriiH]

Principality/Duchy of Kiev - a vassal of Lithuania at 1444

A little discourse in history that could be implemented into EU4.

Several years before the game starts, in 1442-1443, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania restored the Principality of Kiev as a vassalage autonomy with Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich as the Prince. The reason of this vassalage was to ease tensions of Rus (Ruthenian/Russian) nobles (led by Švitrigaila and defeated in the Lithuanian Civil War of 1431–35).
Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich was the son of the Grand Prince of Kiev, Vladimir Algirdaitis (Olgerdovich), and the grandson of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Algirdas (Olgerd). Rather complicated statement, isn't it?

Back to the point, Alexander (Olelko) supported Švitrigaila at the beginning of the Lithuanian Civil War; then changed his side and started supporting Sigismund; then again betrayed his new suzerain and came back to Švitrigaila's side.
Following Sigismund's triumph over Švitrigaila in this Civil War, Alexander was imprisoned in 1434, but released in 1440 by Duke Casimir (Kazimierz) IV Jagiellon after Sigismund's death.
However, Alexander was a good loser, so he tested his fate with a petition to Casimir (Kazimierz) IV to get his father's throne in Kiev, and was granted(!) with it by 1443 to reign until his death in 1455. Kind a lucky guy for a double traitor, wasn't he?

In 1455–70, the Principality of Kiev was reigned by Alexander's son, Semen Olelkovich. Nothing particularly interesting happened to him except the fact that his children could not inherit the throne of the Principality of Kiev, and he could do nothing about it (or did not want, or did not know how, or did not manage to ally Muscovy to support Independence, who knows?..).

Being relatives to the Grand Duke, these both Princes had dynastic ties with:
A. Muscovy (Alexander's spouse, Anastasia Vasilievna, was the daughter of Vasily I of Moscow and sister of Vasily II Temny—the king of Muscovy in 1444);
B. Moldavia (Alexander's daughter, Evdochia, became the spouse of Stephen the Great III); and
C. Tver (Semen's daughter, Sophia Semenivna, became the spouse of Mikhail III of Tver).

The reign of the Father and the Son meant a period of cultural development for Kiev: the Uspensky Cathedral was constructed in Kyiv-Pechersk Lavra (monastic complex) and many Orthodox churches were reconstructed; stone reliefs depicting Oranta (Virgin Orans, Virgin Mary) were created, as well as new editions of Patericons and other religious manuscripts were written. Kiev continued to be an important center for domestic and international trade.

In 1471 after the death of the last Ruthenian ruler—Semen Olelkovich—Lithuania completely integrated the Principality of Kiev into the country making an administrative unit 'Kiev Voivodeship' (Lithuan.: vaivadija)

I am sure that this discourse is a bit (if not very) somnolent. Therefore, I will proceed to the propositions for EU4 that Paradox could present in the 1.9 patch.

1. Please put 'Kiev' onto EU4 timeline between the start 1444 and 1470, inclusively, as a vassal of Lithuania.

2. Please make a 'The History Kiev' for this timeline (something like that):
Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich - 1 January 1442 - 1 January 1455
On 1 January 1442, the Grand Duke of Lithuania restored the Principality of Kiev and proposed a throne to Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich. Due to lack of anything to note, Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich is known through history as extremely lucky.
Semen Olelkovich - 1 January 1455 - 31 December 1470
Due to lack of anything to note, Semen Olelkovich is known through history as boring.

3. Provide the following modifiers to the diplomatic reputation of 'Kiev Principality':
Historical friend with Muscovy, Tver, and Moldavia.

43. The stats and the age of the rulers could be:
Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich (~1380—1454): ADM 3 DIP 6 MIL 2 — high diplomacy for receiving a throne despite being a double traitor
Semen Olelkovich (1418—1470): ADM 3 DIP 3 MIL 2 — slightly below average
On the death of Semen Olelkovich, his brother Mikhail Olelkovich (1420—1481), who became a Novgorodian ruler in 1470 until his execution in 1481, could be the Heir: ADM 4 DIP 1 MIL 1.

Technically, these three updates should not destroy any balance in any way (but who cares about the balance in EU4 with the Big Blue Blob?)
Neither these updates can take much time for a skilled EU4 designer.

Thank you in advance, I would appreciate if you find time and implement the ideas above into the game.

 

[IIWW]

Ok, remove the colours, cause it's unreadable right now.

 

[Sunspawn]

Agh, the colors...

If all this is true, I can definitely see a place for Kiev as a lithuanian vassal.

 

[YuriiH]

Adjusting colours by a bit. Hope, this helps

 

[Mikalos]

"ehhhh"

we donbt need a kiev over there

 

[IIWW]

Looks good to me, but don't give the "historical friend" modifier. there is no reaosn to do it.

 

[YuriiH]

"ehhhh"
we donbt need a kiev over there

Any constructive reason? (except 'me hates EU4 changes')

Looks good to me, but don't give the "historical friend" modifier. there is no reaosn to do it.

Probably, the historical friend with Muscovy is a bit OP for the player. And those ties can be seen as regular 'Royal Marriages'

 

[IIWW]

Any constructive reason? (except 'me hates EU4 changes')

Probably, the historical friend with Muscovy is a bit OP for the player. And those ties can be seen as regular 'Royal Marriages'

That would be better. It suits the situation more: whereas Crimea and Ottos, or Portugal and Spain did maintain good realations/alliance most of the game timeframe, with Kiev We're talking about ~years, and a clearly dinastical bonds.

 

[Mikalos]

Any constructive reason? (except 'me hates EU4 changes')

Probably, the historical friend with Muscovy is a bit OP for the player. And those ties can be seen as regular 'Royal Marriages'

because it would add nothing?

 

[YuriiH]

because it would add nothing?

With this "logic", Art of War added nothing.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

because it would add nothing?

- it would add playable Kiev in 1444, your Captain Obvious.

 

[Prom_STar]

I support this move because I want to be able to play Kiev in ironman. Their flag is too cool.

 

[nicechinos]

I do like this idea a lot. The only problem is with royal marriages. It would get Muscovy stuck with 4 relationships at the beginning of the game. I'd prefer historical friend status with Muscovy. It would be no worse than "historical rival" status incorporated into Georgia-Muscovy relations to say the least.

 

[IIWW]

I do like this idea a lot. The only problem is with royal marriages. It would get Muscovy stuck with 4 relationships at the beginning of the game. I'd prefer historical friend status with Muscovy. It would be no worse than "historical rival" status incorporated into Georgia-Muscovy relations to say the least.

Historical Rivalry between Muscovy and Georgia is gameplay design. Kiev and Muscovy beeing HF would be awful gameplay-wise (breaking the vassalage would be too easy), and is nowhere near historical accuracy.

 

[yerm]

I do like this idea a lot. The only problem is with royal marriages. It would get Muscovy stuck with 4 relationships at the beginning of the game. I'd prefer historical friend status with Muscovy. It would be no worse than "historical rival" status incorporated into Georgia-Muscovy relations to say the least.

What's wrong with Muscovy being stuck with 4 relationships at game start? I currently see them usually ally Denmark, which means Sweden never breaks free and Muscovy never has any manpower left after their stacks romp through Finland. Even other allies tend to be more hassle for Muscovy than gain; they really don't need anyone at all to crush Novgorod and hordes, so locking away their relationship slots is likely to prevent more loss than potential gain. So, sounds good for the ai, who kinda needs a little Muscovy love, and only bad for a player, who frankly shouldn't need a big ally to help or can afford to eat the dip point or stability loss dealing with it, much like a human Brandenburg deals with the useless Mantua royal marriage.

 

[YuriiH]

only bad for a player, who frankly shouldn't need a big ally to help or can afford to eat the dip point or stability loss dealing with it, much like a human Brandenburg deals with the useless Mantua royal marriage.

(I will be talking about possible tactics if RMs are implemented) I think that a Muscovy-player may simply support independance right off the bat and gain some Russian provinces from Lithuania (I recall Kursk, Smolensk, probably some others to connect Pskov), then peace out. The war is easy since Russian winter is very harsh for stupid AIs.
Besides, Alexander (Olelko) Vladimirovich (~1380—1454) will be 64 old in 1444, so the RM may immediately end with some good RNG.

 

[Zak Preston]

Fully support the idea.
But to properly implement it we should figure out what lands were included in Kyiv principality. In Eu4 Kyiv principality is locked between Chernihiv, Zaporizhia, Polotsk and Halych-Volhynya principalities that are fully integrated into Lithuania.

Also I've occasionally found a very interesting website with lots of maps of Ukraine in EU4 timeline
http://vkraina.com/en/maps#1548

 

[generalolaf]

I like this idea. You're right, it shouldn't destroy balance, and if anything Poland-Lithuania is OP anyhow (and that's what it inevitably becomes).

 

[TheBoozehammer]

+1, more playable nations at the start is always nice and it seems to be historical.

 

[DrLulz]

I love these kinds of posts opening my eyes to a little piece of history I had no idea existed. Anyway, your proposal seems fully warranted. Only gameplay-problem I can see, is that supposing the PU between Poland and Lithuania happen Poland will end up having it's diplorelations almost entirely taken up by subjects. But surely this is a minor issue.