Primary title goes to highest de jure titleholder as vassal regardless of giver.

[themendios]

Giving a title I own to someone who then makes it their primary automatically (either because they're unlanded or lower tier) makes them a vassal of the highest existing de jure titleholder of that title regardless of the current holder.

Examples:

I grab Duchy of Thrace from the Byz Emperor as HRE during a rebellion - give to my son. He is now the ERE's vassal and completely outside my control. Interestingly on this one when I gave him the first county before the duchy he was still my vassal and there was no kingdom title iirc.

I give County of Aswan as King of Egypt to one of my unlanded sons, he instantly becomes a vassal of Nubia.

This also applies intrarealm, as Emperor when a vassal King would hand out a duchy they would become my direct vassal no matter what they were before.

Disclaimer: I am playing with CK2+ but Wiz swears it is nothing that he could have possibly done and he knows way more about modding than I do.

Also I've only noticed it since 1.05g.

 

[zeress]

The same issues have been plaguing me. I keep seeing (as emperor) my vassal kings give ducal titles away, to only have that new duke become my vassal. Also only since 1.05g with CK2+

 

[K-vald]

I'm sorry but I'm not able to reproduce this in vanilla.

 

[NONOPUST]

I have this problem as well. Playing CK2+ also.

 

[themendios]

Someone who plays GoT says it happens in that mod as well.

 

[raw]

I've noticed that in my game as king of rus aswell. Over time, the counts of my duke-vassals are becoming my direct vassals, and I can't seem to figure out why. I am constantly transferring vassals to keep my feudal hierachy nice and tidy.

 

[Tiuz]

Now that you mention it, i've had strange liege-changes happen in my King of Frisia game, too.

I usually hand out whole duchies and tend to doublecheck as to not forget anything. Then a couple of years/generations later when wondering about lower than average opinions i notice the 'desires control of x' penalty. I am certain it happened with counties (within Brunswick and Brabant) not sure about Baronies being affected.

As i already attached the savegame of that game to another thread, i'll just relink it here. No idea whether this will help much, as it is hard to reproduce at best.

 

[themendios]

2 easy steps to reproduce:

Be a King vassalized to an emperor.
Give away a duchy to a courtier.

That duke is now the emperor's vassal.

 

[Tiuz]

2 easy steps to reproduce:

Be a King vassalized to an emperor.
Give away a duchy to a courtier.

That duke is now the emperor's vassal.

As much as that was the original buggy behaviour posted, this has not been plagueing me in vanilla. I could hand out duchies just fine as a vassal to the HRE. Whether these titles were de-jure Frisia or some other kingdom (the other kingdoms in question were either uncreated or outside of the HRE) made no difference.

I just assumed that the behaviour i have observed in vanilla (indirect vassals becoming direct vassals for no apparent reason) might be related to the bugs experienced in the mods, with the mods having changed something that made this behaviour appear at the duke tier -- king tier relationship.

 

[themendios]

It's not isolated to king-emperor relationship it's just the most commonly seen as an emperor.

Start as a country that has one province in the de jure kingdom of another (Scotland I think has one of England's at 1066), give away just that county to a courtier and it will be England's vassal.

 

[K-vald]

It's not isolated to king-emperor relationship it's just the most commonly seen as an emperor.

Start as a country that has one province in the de jure kingdom of another (Scotland I think has one of England's at 1066), give away just that county to a courtier and it will be England's vassal.

Are you using either a mod or not the latest version? Because I'm not able to reproduce this at all.

 

[Tiuz]

I've had another instance of the liege changing apparently upon granting a title in my game (just to make it clear - vanilla 1.05g GUHH).

The two savegames i have are 10 years apart and i am King. In the first a Duke is keeping a barony in his de-jure lands as his own, succession is agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. In the later savegame his granddaughter is duchess, his firstborn having died after inheriting, and the barony in question is held by another son of the late duke. This barony has become a direct vassal of me as king somewhere in the timeframe.

Are you interested in these savegames or are there instances where this can happen without me as king being informed?

Regarding this: are there any options that can be used to make autosave behave like a quicksave - i.e. automatical quick-saving at autosave-intervals?

 

[Wizzington]

So I just had something interesting happened - a Duchy vassal of mine ended up under the control of my liege. After some investigation, it turns out the liege had a claim to the Duchy and usurped it (you can usurp from vassals if you have claims), then gave it out again.

Could this be what has been happening in at least some cases? The game does specifically give you a tooltip saying you can't usurp within the same realm, even though it is entirely possible to usurp from vassals if you have a claim.

 

[Wizzington]

Scratch that, I've now been able to reproduce the actual cause of this: the gain_title effect. Meaning that liege is incorrectly set if a vassal hands out a title via an event (for example if a relative asks for it).

To see it in action, put this into any decisions file:

	buggy_titlehandout = {
		potential = {
			ai = no
		}
		allow = {
		}
		effect = {
			random_vassal = {	
                                limit = { tier = baron }
				ROOT = {
					random_demesne_title = {
						limit = {
							can_be_given_away = yes
							lower_tier_than = ROOT
						}
						gain_title = PREVPREV
					}	
				}
			}
		}
		revoke_allowed = {
			always = no
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 0
		}
	}

Then load up as any Duke with 2+ county demesne (I used Swabia) and execute the decision. You will grant a county to one of your barons and that baron becomes a vassal of your liege instead of yourself.

 

[themendios]

Thanks Wiz - I never tracked it down, maybe I would have gotten into the beta if I did

 

[Wizzington]

K-vald, just checking if you saw my reporting of the actual issue. It's not just a mod issue since it will happen if relatives ask for titles from you in vanilla.

 

[K-vald]

K-vald, just checking if you saw my reporting of the actual issue. It's not just a mod issue since it will happen if relatives ask for titles from you in vanilla.

Yeah, I saw it, but I'm a little concerned whether or not this is linked to the mod or not.

I have yet to try the case you describe where a vassal (a relative for example) asks for a title, I'll need to test that.

 

[Wizzington]

It is mod independent. It is a bug of the gain_title function which is used in vanilla. Before 1.05g gain_title did not reassign the liege to top liege, now it does.

 

[K-vald]

It is mod independent. It is a bug of the gain_title function which is used in vanilla. Before 1.05g gain_title did not reassign the liege to top liege, now it does.

Yep, you're right, I just tested it and confirmed this to be in vanilla.

 

[raw]

good job wiz!