Prima Noctae rights????

[unmerged(11620)]

I just read in the Hungarian AAR that "Prima Noctae" is for some reason in this game? Can anyone explain to me why?

It's all made up you know, the product of later romantic historians who viewed the whole of the middle ages as a barbaric time. Even if such a custom had existed in pre-Christian tribes no such right was ever recognized in Christian Europe. The Pope and the bishops would never have permitted it. It's just fantastical nonsense.

 

[InnocentIII]

I just read in the Hungarian AAR that "Prima Noctae" is for some reason in this game? Can anyone explain to me why?

Some AAR items are wholly fabricated by the writer. In my Austrian AAR all of my colonization failures were indicated by a messenger who became less and less real as failures mounted, until finally he was merely a distant sound.

The actual in-game pop-up boxes were annoyingly consistent.

So, while Prima Noctae may be in the game, it might just be flavor in the AAR.

 

[unmerged(8622)]

No need to jump to conclusions, and do not take word for word the AARs of the Betas, they are more for entertainment value at this stage than anything
-SS

 

[Varyar]

So that's why everyone hates Braveheart...

Anyway, even if it's in the game, it's probably more as symbolic flavour to giving increased influence to nobles. Most likely it's just AAR spice though.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

What is 'Prima Noctae' anyway?

 

[hjarg]

"Right for the first night" by other words. Meaning that the noble in the area has the right to spend the first night with the newlywed wife. So the wedding night would be something like: noble and bride shagging happily (or problably not so happily) in the bed, while the poor new husband stays outside and curses.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

"Right for the first night" by other words. Meaning that the noble in the area has the right to spend the first night with the newlywed wife. So the wedding night would be something like: noble and bride shagging happily (or problably not so happily) in the bed, while the poor new husband stays outside and curses.

Oh

Well I hope thats not in the game

 

[Varyar]

"Right for the first night" by other words. Meaning that the noble in the area has the right to spend the first night with the newlywed wife. So the wedding night would be something like: noble and bride shagging happily (or problably not so happily) in the bed, while the poor new husband stays outside and curses.

Perhaps more popular in areas ruled by a countess?

 

[hjarg]

Perhaps more popular in areas ruled by a countess?

Well, that would depend. Most likely you'd get a 50 years old crone who makes an elephant look thin in comparison as your countess. Not a good thing

 

[Judge]

Perhaps a future patch could add a "virtual reality" Prima Noctae option?

 

[Arilou]

IIRC the actual "rights" were never practiced, BUT people were quite willing to pay a tax to be rid of their local noble on their wedding-night...

 

[Martinus]

Oh

Well I hope thats not in the game

As a betatester I vow to make sure that the game doesn't feature any other horrible medieval things, such as wars, assassinations, arranged marriages, division of society according to class, heresies, inquisitions, religious intolerance and crusades.

 

[Finnish Dragon]

As a betatester I vow to make sure that the game doesn't feature any other horrible medieval things, such as wars, assassinations, arranged marriages, division of society according to class, heresies, inquisitions, religious intolerance and crusades.

Then Paradox should rename Crusader Kings as Medieval Wimps. Seriously speaking it is only a game. One thing I love in computer strategy games is that you can do anything you can´t and won´t do in a real life.

I don´t mind if the game does have Prima Noctae but I think every setting and every choice must have consequences. If you want Prima Noctae you will appease your nobility and you also make peasants, artisans and merchants more likely to rebel. I think priests would also be distressed by Prima Noctae.

 

[Varyar]

Well, that would depend. Most likely you'd get a 50 years old crone who makes an elephant look thin in comparison as your countess. Not a good thing

Good point.

 

[The Witch-King]

I just read in the Hungarian AAR that "Prima Noctae" is for some reason in this game? Can anyone explain to me why?

It's all made up you know, the product of later romantic historians who viewed the whole of the middle ages as a barbaric time. Even if such a custom had existed in pre-Christian tribes no such right was ever recognized in Christian Europe. The Pope and the bishops would never have permitted it. It's just fantastical nonsense.

There is historical precedence, and it's not confined to the middle ages. I am even sure you can see it today in some places, though it will most often not be inscribed in official law.

You just don't want to think that the world can be that bad, do you?

 

[unmerged(14553)]

There is historical precedence, and it's not confined to the middle ages. I am even sure you can see it today in some places, though it will most often not be inscribed in official law.

You just don't want to think that the world can be that bad, do you?

Prima Noctae (or 'Droit du Seigneur') did exist in Celtic times, but there is no evidence whatsoever of it actually having existed in medieval Europe. What there are is some loose records of redemption dues paid by the vassal, which may not indicate anything.

(besides, peasants at this time were hardy folk. A noble trying to do that would find himself slaughtered in little time. Heck, in our local records we have stories of groups of soldiers being squashed by villagers for far pettier reasons, such as insulting one of the locals)

 

[Keynes]

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13493.ctl

Boureau, Alain The Lord's First Night: The Myth of the Droit de Cuissage. Translated by Lydia G. Cochrane. x, 300 p. 1998

Cloth $55.00tx 0-226-06742-4 Fall 1998
Paper $19.00tx 0-226-06743-2 Fall 1998

From the late Middle Ages to The Marriage of Figaro to Mel Gibson's Braveheart, the ultimate symbol of feudal barbarism has been thedroit de cuissage, or right of a feudal lord to sleep with the bride of a vassal on her wedding night. The droit de cuissage even resurfaced in the debate over the French Penal Code of 1992 as a synonym for sexual harassment.

But, as Alain Boureau elegantly demonstrates in this book, the droit de cuissage is a myth. Under contextual examination, nearly all the supposed evidence for this custom melts away--yet belief in it has survived for seven hundred years. Boureau shows how each era turned the mythical custom to its own ends. For instance, in the late Middle Ages, monarchists raised the specter of the droit de cuissage to rally public opinion against local lords, and partisans of the French Revolution pointed to it as proof of the corruption of the Ancien Régime.

A fascinating case study of the folklore of sexuality, The Lord's First Night also offers evocative insights into popular (mis)conceptions of the Middle Ages.

 

[Martinus]

Well, you can always choose not to grant it.

And since the nobles are asking for it, I dont see how it is unhistorical to give it to them if you are so inclined (though I'd assume the peasants wont like it too much).

 

[unmerged(11620)]

There is historical precedence, and it's not confined to the middle ages. I am even sure you can see it today in some places, though it will most often not be inscribed in official law.

Wrong: evidence is confined, specifically, to sources NOT contemporary to the middle ages.

You just don't want to think that the world can be that bad, do you?

No it has nothing to do with how bad I believe the world can be. Ask any Medieval Historian, the so called "droit du seigneur" has no real basis in fact. If such a right were ever in existence there would have been much complaint on the part of the Church. Regardless of whether it was used simply as an excuse to fleece the bridegroom, as a matter of the political reality of the time it makes no sense that we can't find a single case of a bishop or priest condemning the practice. When you consider that the Church frequently lobbied for the freedom of vassals in marriage, and against other well documented abuses regarding certain feudal customs, it just doesn't add up. No evidence for such a custom in Christian Europe exists before the 16th century, and in all likelihood it was not a real custom but a mythical one. Even that evidence is sketchy at best, and in any case point to pre-Christian rituals of marriage, which may or may not have involved actually deflowering the bride, and of course may ore may not have been the fantasies of the authors.

Now maybe I'm overreacting, but I've spent most of my life studying the Middle Ages (I will be going for my MA in Medieval Studies soon) and I frankly get tried of all the phony history disseminated in popular media, like movies and the Internet. Why people think they can get accurate information from the Internet especially on the middle ages, which as thing are now is still largely the privilege of academics, is beyond me. It's probably because I'm so used to it, but every time I see silly stuff like this (especially when the myth is so old that belief in it is anachronistic even from our perspective), it makes me sad. I hope that it's just the interpretation of the author of the AAR. But if you knew as much about the middle ages as I (and I'm just a student) you would understand why I get upset and am likely to think the worst. You see for me, day in day out, whenever I hear about the middle ages in popular culture it might as well be about fairies and dragons for all the “historical truth” that I find. It's just sicking, now I'm going to go be depressed at the Library (I wish I hadn't given up alcohol for lent, I could really use some.)

 

[Martinus]

It's just sicking, now I'm going to go be depressed at the Library (I wish I hadn't given up alcohol for lent, I could really use some.)

Getting laid would help too. Then you wouldn't be upset about nobles of Pressburg getting more.