Preventing Manifest Destiny as Texas

[Memnon]

Hi everyone...first time posting in quite a while. Hope you've all been well.

I'm playing a HOD PDM game as Texas. It's the 1870s and I am a great power. I own all of Mexico's former territories (California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico). The USA owns none of them.

I have started getting an event that offers me annexation by the USA. When I refuse, there is a USA manifest destiny event that causes them to gain cores on all my territories, break its alliance with me, and declare war. I reloaded the game as the USA to see what's going on and it seems like it should not be possible for them to select manifest destiny becuase Texas exists and they own none of Mexico's cores. Mexico is in their sphere of influence, but that happened many years ago and the event is only firing now.

Does anyone have any idea what's going on here? Can anyone tell me how to avoid a manifest destiny war with the USA?

 

[iron0037]

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question. As a V2 newbie, though, I'm intrigued by your Texas success. I've been playing Texas to learn the ropes. Try as I might, I can only win the war of independence with American intervention. From there, I run a tiny budget surplus until the 1870s or so, at which point I get a socialist government and buy a fertilizer factory. After that, my finances skyrocket (especially with oil discoveries), and I'm able to expand into the Caribbean and become a second tier power. But I could never attack Mexico since they were in the US sphere, and great power seemed forever beyond reach.

So how on earth did you pull off your feats? What skills am I missing as a beginner?

 

[Memnon]

So how on earth did you pull off your feats? What skills am I missing as a beginner?

Well, first of all, remember that I'm playing PDM. I have no idea whether this will work in vanilla.

The Velasco Treaty event fires shortly after Mexico begins occupying your territory. You capture Santa Anna and force him to sign the treaty. If Mexico refuses to acknowledge the treaty, then you get an event called "The Texan Diplomat" that allows you to petition the USA for an alliance and intervention in the war. That's what I did.

Once the Americans showed up, I let them liberate my occupied provinces and then followed their armies into Mexico. The trick I used was to separate my one cavalry unit from the rest of my army and send it in the direction the American army was moving. Because the cavalry is faster, it arrives in the unoccupied Mexican province a day or two before the American army and therefore the occupation of that province will technically be Texan rather than American. This allowed me to rack up some positive war score and let me add a war goal to liberate my cores.

Five years later, I just repeated the same technique but demanded New Mexico and Arizona (11 badboy total for both), and five years after that, I did it again. And again. I just allowed the US armies to do most of the work but gave myself positive war score so I could add the war goals. It's a little gamey but it works.

My other trick was to focus on conquering the Mexican colonial territories in the west rather than take proper Mexican states. That way I didn't diminish my literacy rate, and it allowed me to prevent (or at least delay) the US manifest destiny decision for about 30 years.

Finally, I pushed my government to become as liberal as possible in each election, giving me reforms that attract lots of immigrants.

Incidentally, I figured out what's causing the USA manifest destiny decision: apparently "Manifest Destiny" is one of those little cultural inventions that pops up. Once Texas invents that, it allows the USA to claim all its historical territories in the West even if they are owned by an independent Texas. Unfortunately this includes Texas itself so you can't avoid this simply by conquering different land. You just have to be ready to deal with the USA wanting to steal all your land once you get that far into the game.

 

[niallmcfc]

The decision requirements listed in game are actually wrong. It requires (in PDM):

US isn't at war
US has romanticism
US has ideological thought
US has no truce with Mexico
Either Texas doesn't exist, US has invented Manifest Destiny or US owns a core Mexico province.

So at a guess I'd say they've only asked now because they've just got the Manifest Destiny invention. Not much you can do about it in PDM, I'm afraid. It's going to happen sooner or later.

 

[Orlov Kruskayev]

The decision requirements listed in game are actually wrong. It requires (in PDM):

US isn't at war

Is this a breech/exploit I see?

I say, keep the US in your wars war at all times.

 

[Mikalos]

The decision requirements listed in game are actually wrong. It requires (in PDM):

US isn't at war
US has romanticism
US has ideological thought
US has no truce with Mexico
Either Texas doesn't exist, US has invented Manifest Destiny or US owns a core Mexico province.

So at a guess I'd say they've only asked now because they've just got the Manifest Destiny invention. Not much you can do about it in PDM, I'm afraid. It's going to happen sooner or later.

cause what america needed was more railroading >.> <.<

 

[niallmcfc]

Is this a breech/exploit I see?

I say, keep the US in your wars war at all times.

Rolling wars, making sure to re-declare on mexico every five years. Don't see why not.

cause what america needed was more railroading >.> <.<

To be fair, it wasn't something that actually made much sense irl. It was almost as if the American government & people decided one day that they were better than Mexico and should own half their land. Bizarre circumstance, and anywhere else on the globe at the time it probably would've been shot down straight away. There isn't really any reason to not have the decision available as an [(X)Always] or a [(X)Pop Consciousness greater than 4] except for how it would screw up the AI.

 

[Mikalos]

Rolling wars, making sure to re-declare on mexico every five years. Don't see why not.



To be fair, it wasn't something that actually made much sense irl. It was almost as if the American government & people decided one day that they were better than Mexico and should own half their land. Bizarre circumstance, and anywhere else on the globe at the time it probably would've been shot down straight away. There isn't really any reason to not have the decision available as an [(X)Always] or a [(X)Pop Consciousness greater than 4] except for how it would screw up the AI.

the problem is, in the game, it just makes anybody playing mexico (or texas) or any other NA minor have a god awful life

 

[crownsteler]

Yes yes Mikalos, we know you don't like how the US plays. You are starting to sound like a broken record every time the US comes up.

How would you handle Manifest Destiny?

 

[Closet Skeleton]

the problem is, in the game, it just makes anybody playing mexico (or texas) or any other NA minor have a god awful life

Not in vanilla.

If you don't like part of a mod you can just change it easily.

Mexico will have a horrible time anyway due to the USA getting all those immigrants and generally being stronger no matter what you do.

 

[iron0037]

Well, first of all, remember that I'm playing PDM. The Velasco Treaty event fires shortly after Mexico begins occupying your territory. You capture Santa Anna and force him to sign the treaty. If Mexico refuses to acknowledge the treaty, then you get an event called "The Texan Diplomat" that allows you to petition the USA for an alliance and intervention in the war. That's what I did.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yes, an early alliance with the US would make life a lot easier. I could never pull it off in vanilla as it seems that "diplomatic concerns" outpaces my ability to increase relations with them. But I started a new game and lucked out by achieving annexation of Cuba in the 1850s. Spain was embroiled in a giant war, and Cuba was overrun with rebels. I declared war, and they surrendered before I could even land my invasion fleet. Should make for an interesting game. I'm starting to like this V2...though I don't know how anyone would play a major power. Running Britain, France, the US, and Prussia sound like micromanagement nightmares.

 

[Mikalos]

Yes yes Mikalos, we know you don't like how the US plays. You are starting to sound like a broken record every time the US comes up.

How would you handle Manifest Destiny?

the way vanilla handles it?

Manifest Destiny and thus the avalanche of cores only happens if they can get texas otherwise they happily (more or less) sit there without the mexican concession or the 3 mexican american wars it takes to get it

 

[crownsteler]

Then please state that, and not that tired old 'railroad = bad' rethoric. Try to be a bit more substantive and constructive next time.

 

[Mikalos]

Then please state that, and not that tired old 'railroad = bad' rethoric. Try to be a bit more substantive and constructive next time.

it boils dpown to "railroading = bad". the entirety of saying "dont just hand out cores so they do what they did in history" is "railroading = bad"

 

[Jorlaan]

Which is why I just straight up modded OUT manifest destiny all together. Now I actually see Mexico hold its own once in a while and keep its land.
This also makes playing as any of, Mexico, Texas, Canada, any USCA country and arguably countries in South America more interesting.

 

[ringhloth]

I dunno. You read about the Mexico-American War, and that's essentially how it happened. Americans got high on their Anglo-Saxon superiority, and a huge majority of the ruling elites believed that the west was rightly theirs, and Mexico should be conquered ASAP. Some of ones who didn't were against it because they didn't like that it would spread slavery. Some didn't because they believed that Mexico would willingly accept the Anglo-Saxon's superiority all on their own. There were some who opposed it because it would result in good, honest Anglo-Saxons intermingling with Mexicans, who, because of their more intimate mingling with the natives, inevitably became a slothful and ignorant race. The people who spoke out vehemently against the war as it was bloody and pointless were in the significant, significant minority, and earlier patches of Vicky didn't really reflect that. The US was far too passive.