Prevent Equipment variant from production from scratch, only allowing it bo be upgraded from previous variant

[Hopekeeper]

Hi all!

Have a question on equipment production.
Currently, we have an option to upgrade currently existing equipment to upgraded variant (via pressing small button on the left bottom corner of production line). When all previous equipment is upgraded, production of new ones, from scratch begins.
So, my question is, can we control this behavior thus only currently existing equipment can be upgraded, without new one being produced.
As a real world reference: Ukraine received a bunch of USSR-made MiG-29/Su-27 fighters. It can't produce new one, cause have no elements base and no previous experience, but instead Ukraine make efforts to upgrade currently existing planes (radio, GPS, some other elements). So, in game mechanics, Ukraine can create an existing model variant, can upgrade existing models to new variant, but can't produce upgraded variant from scratch when existing units ends.

Does anybody knows is it possible to recreate such a model in HoI 4 (via current mechanics or modding files)?

Best regards,
Hopekeeper

 

[brainiac1530]

From my experience with such things, it's not possible via the production line system, at least. Conversion just builds something at an increased rate by consuming something similar, from a short list of possible equipment types, or a different variant of the same equipment. It doesn't have a separate IC cost or anything like that. It doesn't look like it's possible to do it via events or decisions, either, as it doesn't appear to be possible to specify a particular variant of an equipment. Or, for the purposes of consuming equipment, its source (though newly spawned equipment can have a specified source.)

However, certain types of equipment can be "converted" between equipment types, e.g. light self-propelled guns from light tanks. This could be done, in a convoluted way, using decisions or events. The problem is that, to prevent the country from just building the equipment themselves, they can neither license the equipment nor research the technology. It'd have to be lend-leased to them, or spawned via decision/event (the Spanish Civil War has decisions like this.) The main problem is that you can't use military IC as a cost in any direct way, as you can with civs for "projects." You could instead use some type of equipment as a stand-in for proper MIC -- the player then "pays the MIC cost" by assigning extra MILs to that stand-in equipment.

 

[BeauNiddle]

If you use xp to make Mig-29 MK2 then you'll be able to upgrade the planes you have at a much cheaper rate.

And you can licence other countries designs and then apply your xp to make your own variant IIRC. I think that's the closest you'll get.

 

[Hopekeeper]

From my experience with such things, it's not possible via the production line system, at least. Conversion just builds something at an increased rate by consuming something similar, from a short list of possible equipment types, or a different variant of the same equipment. It doesn't have a separate IC cost or anything like that. It doesn't look like it's possible to do it via events or decisions, either, as it doesn't appear to be possible to specify a particular variant of an equipment. Or, for the purposes of consuming equipment, its source (though newly spawned equipment can have a specified source.)

However, certain types of equipment can be "converted" between equipment types, e.g. light self-propelled guns from light tanks. This could be done, in a convoluted way, using decisions or events. The problem is that, to prevent the country from just building the equipment themselves, they can neither license the equipment nor research the technology. It'd have to be lend-leased to them, or spawned via decision/event (the Spanish Civil War has decisions like this.) The main problem is that you can't use military IC as a cost in any direct way, as you can with civs for "projects." You could instead use some type of equipment as a stand-in for proper MIC -- the player then "pays the MIC cost" by assigning extra MILs to that stand-in equipment.

Thanks for your reply.

Do you know, if we can effect resources needed for upgrade to variant?
Let's say, base model have 2 steel and 1 rubber resource cost. If a variant costs 3 steel and 1 rubber, does the upgrade take only 1 steel (the difference in resources between base and variant) or all 4 resources?
If the answer is "Yes, only the difference counts", can we simulate only upgrades by adding 1 new resource (let's name it "Soviet avionics", that is not produced by this country, and is not easy to get on market) to base model, thus when upgrade is made, it is not needed, but when production of a new item starts, this added resource is needed?
To make it clear, you need 1 unique resource to produce new equipment, but it is not needed to upgrade this equipment to variant?

 

[Hopekeeper]

If you use xp to make Mig-29 MK2 then you'll be able to upgrade the planes you have at a much cheaper rate.

And you can licence other countries designs and then apply your xp to make your own variant IIRC. I think that's the closest you'll get.

Thanks for your reply.

In this case, when already owned equipment items (base MiG-29 9-13) are upgraded to new variant (Ukrainian version MiG-29MU1), production of new, additional items of upgraded variant (Ukrainian version MiG-29MU1) will start, am I right?

 

[BeauNiddle]

Thanks for your reply.

Do you know, if we can effect resources needed for upgrade to variant?
Let's say, base model have 2 steel and 1 rubber resource cost. If a variant costs 3 steel and 1 rubber, does the upgrade take only 1 steel (the difference in resources between base and variant) or all 4 resources?
If the answer is "Yes, only the difference counts", can we simulate only upgrades by adding 1 new resource (let's name it "Soviet avionics", that is not produced by this country, and is not easy to get on market) to base model, thus when upgrade is made, it is not needed, but when production of a new item starts, this added resource is needed?
To make it clear, you need 1 unique resource to produce new equipment, but it is not needed to upgrade this equipment to variant?

Thanks for your reply.

In this case, when already owned equipment items (base MiG-29 9-13) are upgraded to new variant (Ukrainian version MiG-29MU1), production of new, additional items of upgraded variant (Ukrainian version MiG-29MU1) will start, am I right?

Correct - once the updating has finished the production line will attempt to produce the base item.

I don't know of any modding solution that will easily do what you ask for, however there is a modding sub forum where they are a lot more knowledgeable about such matters.

You could probably create a Frankenstein solution out of the parts Paradox have given us but doing so successfully will difficult and probably prone to falling apart. It depends on if you want a specific scenario for your mod or if you want to have a base 'feature' that everybody can use.

Just as a thought exercise:

I know using the conversion system has much cheaper resource requirements than normal production but I don't know how the cost is calculated.
I know that upgrading ships not only takes the price difference into account but also a percentage of the base cost but that was added after conversion so may be different
I know that you can script giving items to other countries (India giving spitfires to UK for example)
I know you can licence designs and I think you can then upgrade them yourself.
I know that you can block countries from producing certain items (Bulgaria in the latest DLC I think)
I don't know how the cost of variants is worked out.

IF the conversion system works on the difference between the 2 items + a flat minimum cost then you could do something like MIG-29 costs 10000 IC to produce & a variant of it only costs 10010 IC. Give Russia X special factories that give 10000IC and block other countries from producing that type of factory. Thus a country could convert their existing planes to a variant but will only produce 1 plane a year, if that once they are no longer converting.


Or as you suggest have a resource "soviet avionics" that hopefully isn't needed by conversion - Although I think resources are automatically traded depending on economy laws so couldn't use that solution if the country is on free trade (so you would need a different solution for licencing and upgrading American planes say)



Again - if you're thinking of making a mod you're probably better of asking in the modding subforum.

 

[Hopekeeper]

Correct - once the updating has finished the production line will attempt to produce the base item.

I don't know of any modding solution that will easily do what you ask for, however there is a modding sub forum where they are a lot more knowledgeable about such matters.

You could probably create a Frankenstein solution out of the parts Paradox have given us but doing so successfully will difficult and probably prone to falling apart. It depends on if you want a specific scenario for your mod or if you want to have a base 'feature' that everybody can use.

Just as a thought exercise:

I know using the conversion system has much cheaper resource requirements than normal production but I don't know how the cost is calculated.
I know that upgrading ships not only takes the price difference into account but also a percentage of the base cost but that was added after conversion so may be different
I know that you can script giving items to other countries (India giving spitfires to UK for example)
I know you can licence designs and I think you can then upgrade them yourself.
I know that you can block countries from producing certain items (Bulgaria in the latest DLC I think)
I don't know how the cost of variants is worked out.

IF the conversion system works on the difference between the 2 items + a flat minimum cost then you could do something like MIG-29 costs 10000 IC to produce & a variant of it only costs 10010 IC. Give Russia X special factories that give 10000IC and block other countries from producing that type of factory. Thus a country could convert their existing planes to a variant but will only produce 1 plane a year, if that once they are no longer converting.


Or as you suggest have a resource "soviet avionics" that hopefully isn't needed by conversion - Although I think resources are automatically traded depending on economy laws so couldn't use that solution if the country is on free trade (so you would need a different solution for licencing and upgrading American planes say)



Again - if you're thinking of making a mod you're probably better of asking in the modding subforum.

Thanks once more for comprehensive reply!

I will think on asking in Modding subforum, but will try ways we've thought about in this one.

Best regards,
Hopekeeper

 

[--Yigito123--]

I feel like this could also be brought to the suggestions subforum. A "conversion only" toggle in and of itself seems like a useful feature regardless of anything else being discussed here. Sometimes, you just want to convert some useless obsolete light tanks into Light SPG's and don't want to waste more IC and resources than that on the task, but the game doesn't actually notify the player on when convertable equipment runs out.