Pressing vassal claims - why isn't he my vassal anymore?

[Xiathorn]

Hi all,

I'm a little confused as to the reasons why people sometimes remain your vassal, and why they sometimes don't.

Playing as the Duke of Connacht, I captured Breifne. I then invited a claimant to Tyrconnell (well his wife actually, who I married to him in the first place, but whatever).

I gave this claimant the county of Breifne, which is under my De Jure Duchy. I then pressed his claims (which went a bit wrong, requiring me to spend a lot of money on mercs) and won the war for Tyrconnell.

Next thing I know, I'm a Duke of one county again and this guy has both the County of Tyrconnell AND the County of Breifne. He's NOT my vassal, and any attempt to make him my vassal fails. In the end I declared a De Jure war to take back Breifne, but the net result is that I'm down a lot of money for having done basically nothing.

Other times, I have given land to a claimant, and pressed his claims - and it's worked! Not all the time though - this is hardly a new occurrence of the way the land breaks down.

Could somebody explain to me the exact logic? I am playing with CK2+, but this has happened in vanilla games too. I'd dearly love to know the mechanics for this, as it seems ridiculous that I discover, after pressing a war, that actually I'm worse off at the end of it, with seemingly no way to determine why.

My current understanding is that :
A) The person must end up with an overall title lower than your primary title, as a Duke cannot be vassal to another Duke (CHECK)
B) The person must hold land in your realm (CHECK) - not sure if it has to be De Jure land or not (CHECK anyway)
C) If the person is of your dynasty, they'll automatically become your vassal (Not on this occasion)
D) If the land is your De Jure land (Not on this occasion)

I thought that, with A&B, I was safe. Can someone please advise?

Xiathorn

 

[Keinwyn]

That is how I understood it too. Maybe try taking it to the bug reports forum?

 

[JonStryker]

I pressed like hundreds of claims this way: Invite somebody. Give him a barony on the other side of the world. Press his claim. Be his liege.

This is either a problem with the mod or a bug that was introduced very recently.

 

[Balota Grigore]

what is his title .. maybe you also pressed a duchy or he usurped the title and became a duke or crated the title .. so what is his current title ?

 

[shypixel]

what is his title .. maybe you also pressed a duchy or he usurped the title and became a duke or crated the title .. so what is his current title ?

This. Happened to me for the first time on an MP game, so no save to revert to...

Gotta watch out for those damn two county duchies, they allow anyone to usurp/create a duke title. Honestly, I think you should not be able to form a duchy with only one holding, excepting maybe only Venice. For those little two county duchies, force both of them to be owned...

 

[OldRanger]

I had a similar problem that I never figured out. My courtier was had a claim on a county in Scottland. Pressed and won the war. He got the county, but then he was a vassal to Norway of all places. He was Norwegian in culture, but had married into my court so I am at a loss as to why he revereted soon as he got a county.

 

[JonStryker]

I had a similar problem that I never figured out. My courtier was had a claim on a county in Scottland. Pressed and won the war. He got the county, but then he was a vassal to Norway of all places. He was Norwegian in culture, but had married into my court so I am at a loss as to why he revereted soon as he got a county.

This is easy: The courtier was probably not your vassal. You need to land him if you want to gain him as a vassal if you press his claim.

 

[Balota Grigore]

or assassinate his wife and kids force him to marry into your dynasty wait for junior kill him press claim

 

[Xiathorn]

His current title is Count of Breifne.

I re-examined the tooltip actually, which states that, in order to achieve this, the vassal must have a title in your realm HIGHER than the new title. This is debilitating when you're attempting to expand in Ireland, and I am pretty sure it wasn't like that before, as I'm pretty sure I've never given someone a ducal position before pushing his claims, and almost always pushed counties.

Maybe this is due to CK2+, so I will double-check in vanilla now.

He certainly did not usurp the duchy of Connacht.

 

[tuareg109]

I expanded in Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, and everywhere like this.

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing.
I'd say it's a bug.

 

[Xiathorn]

So after testing with both the England in 1066 and the same actors in Ireland without CK2+, it works.

My apologies for failing to figure out it was caused specifically by the mod - I had no idea the mod could change this. Not best pleased, but hey ho.

Doesn't explain why it happened before in VANILLA, so I'll try and reproduce that tomorrow.

Thanks for all the replies guys, and sorry for wasting your time with my failed question

 

[aniuby]

That's very strange, maybe I'm doing something wrong too.

As the Empire of Britannia, I pressed my second son's claim on the Holy Roman Empire but after I won the HRE did not become my vassal. I had to revoke his bishopric from him before I made peace because I didn't want to turn the HRE into some crazy overpowered theocracy, but he's still my son so I ought to gain him as a vassal.

Have I done something wrong? Or is it just impossible to make an Empire the vassal of another Empire?

(In the end the whole HRE imploded in a civil war and my son lost the throne, but at least his family gained a duchy and I snagged some provinces from the otherwise invincible HRE blob, so I guess I got something out of it. It was still glorious.)

BTW, Tyrconnell is best Irish county! =)

 

[Kaiser Ludwig]

Empires cannot be vassalized. You are equal rank, so your best bet would then be to make him your primary heir for eventual unification

Just saw the implosion part. Question: why didn't you support your son in his civil war?

 

[aniuby]

Kaiser Ludwig : Short answer, he never asked!

Long answer - I managed to install my family in Castille, France, Hungary, and Byzantium as well. And they promptly went to war with each other or imploded and they could have dragged me in too. I know I could have offered to help my son in his civil war but didn't because I had my hands full picking opportunistic fights with various rebelling HRE duchies to gain domains which I knew would stay mine for sure.

My king didn't get himself known as the "The Ill-Ruler" for nothing. It's not the hordes or the black death, but him, who set Europe back for a hundred years.

And then that silly son of his got himself killed in battle, causing the war to immediately end in favour of the challenger. So that was the end of that.

 

[icon41gimp]

If you install someone on a throne be prepared for them to lose their crown immediately. Their vassals will just be too strong after the war and they will often just concede to the ultimatum without war.

 

[tuareg109]

Long answer - I managed to install my family in Castille, France, Hungary, and Byzantium as well. And they promptly went to war with each other or imploded and they could have dragged me in too. I know I could have offered to help my son in his civil war but didn't because I had my hands full picking opportunistic fights with various rebelling HRE duchies to gain domains which I knew would stay mine for sure.

Non-roleplaying scum!!!

 

[aniuby]

Non-roleplaying scum!!!

You are right. My king refuses to roleplay at all. Even though he was cast as "The Ill Ruler", he only died at the ripe old age of 85 after a long and healthy life, outliving two wives and two sons, and six decades of plunging Europe into turmoil.

Seriously though, I find watching big blobs imploding and hordes of factions battling each other to be much more interesting than conquering it for myself. In this case, I got the opportunity to either expand my empire, or watch a beautiful show where France, the HRE and Byzantium collapsed into civil war at the same time (with Ruthenia and the hordes thrown in for good measure). It's win-win!

 

[zhivago6]

If a vassal has a weak claim what is the rule for pressing it? Once upon a time you could press almost any claim, but now the rules are different. I recently invited to my court (Byzantium) a claimant on the throne of Denmark, but after installing him in his own holding, I was unable to press the claim. Does he need another criteria that I am unaware of?

 

[Xiathorn]

Weak claims are new(ish)

Weak claims can only be pressed on women (if the claimant is male), or children. 90% sure, at least - if you hover over the claim, it will say what the conditions are.

Strong claims can be pushed against anyone.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Weak claims can only be pressed against female rulers or rulers in a civil war.