Precursor Unbalance Issues

[TrotBot]

a perfectly balanced stellaris is likely impossible and it's hardly worth the devs time to try and achieve the impossible, but the precursors are just plain ridiculous. i adore this game and have been playing for well over 3 years, this has annoyed me since ancient relics, please look into this.

i agreed with you till this. of course "perfect balance" is impossible, but trying to somewhat balance things is not impossible and has its own improvements incrimentally. so while i don't mind other people who want to choose a precursor having an option to do so (i would find that takes away from the mystery myself), balance is exactly the kind of thing the custodians team are working on. i would not mind a yuht buff or buffs to other precursors that don't have the strength of some of my favourite ones. i really really do not want nerfs to those ones tho, because i don't think they're op they just make the precursors feel that much cooler. so kind of like in overwatch the whole point is everyone feels like a superhero/supervillain and that balances them out (ish, see above on the ideal of continuous balance). so in this case i would really want the others to "feel as gamechanging". i know what you mean, because my level of excitement around certain precursors is very different. let them all feel exciting to find even if you've already seen it

I'm alright with it, since I only used it for a power trip. Of the people that I know personally, I am the only one who doesn't hate the new ringworld origin, out of about ten people.

I really love the new ringworld origin actually now that i can use habitats properly it gives me massive mineral output from the ring for the first couple of hundred years whereas minerals were holding me back on the previous origin. and i think it makes opening the other ring segments much cooler from a roleplay perspective. and finally it makes it possible to play it in multiplayer without people whining.

 

[blahmaster6k]

Since no one has done so yet, Allow me to explain why OP is wrong about the Yuht being useless and terrible in all circumstances (because they aren't).

Void Dwellers are constantly making habitats the whole game. +1 extra pop on each habitat is great.

Machines also get an extra pop on new colonies. Add the Yuht and the Expansion tradition, and their colonies start with 4 pops each. This is extremely good, considering that machines can settle any planet(including conquered ones that the previous owner ignored due to low habitability) and can still build habitats.

The Initiate Yuht Cleansing Process decision adds 10% habitability to each of your planets. For a biological empire, this translates into a permanent 5% bonus to job output on every planet as well as 10% reduced upkeep and amenities usage, for the low cost of 500 energy, or 1 minor artifact, and some temporary devastation. This decision alone is very powerful, and is a stronger bonus than some of the other precursors get. The Baol get one gaia world every 10 years which is 10% pop output on top of perfect habitability, the Yuht get 5% but on as many planets as there is energy for.

TL;DR, Yuht not terrible.

Also, if you're not colonizing planets past 30 years, then you're either not expanding at all (which is bad), or you're not settling all the planets you could be within your space(which is also bad).

 

[oreopirate]

The Initiate Yuht Cleansing Process decision adds 10% habitability to each of your planets. For a biological empire, this translates into a permanent 5% bonus to job output on every planet as well as 10% reduced upkeep and amenities usage, for the low cost of 500 energy, or 1 minor artifact, and some temporary devastation. This decision alone is very powerful, and is a stronger bonus than some of the other precursors get. The Baol get one gaia world every 10 years which is 10% pop output on top of perfect habitability, the Yuht get 5% but on as many planets as there is energy for.

True, but compared to the others, it's a bit underwhelming.
Cybrex- Ringworld, +5% alloys, cheap, strong armies, and on activation, gives you half of a Ringworld segment (5k alloys). Insight projects give mega structure as a tech option, and +10% megastructure build speed.
League- Relic world -> Ecumenopolus world. Insights give +15% research speed, tech options needed to make own ecumenopoli, and +10% building speed.
Irassian- Javorian Pox,+20 leader lifespan, and Pox bombardment. Insights give +20% bio research, and +5% pop growth.
Vultuam- Reality perforator -10% amenities usage, and makes ships stronger. Insights give +10% amenities, +15% Computing research
Baol- Last Baol makes the gaia world, and gives you four free pops. +10% growth speed/ +10% society research. Insights provide free tech, and 15% cheaper terraforming.
Zroni- Shroud stuff, not going into this because its so niche.

Yuht does grant those bonuses. But the relic itself the +1 pops on new colonies, and -20% ship upkeep for 10 years is... Rather underwhelming. The Psionic archive is useful for psionics, the vultuam is great for conquest, the Baol gives free pops and a gaia world, the League gives you a free relic world, and cybrex a ringworld.
All the OP is trying to say is that compared to the others, The Javorian Pox and Yuht Cryo core are underwhelming the artifacts need some love from the devs.

And hands down, the Cryo core is not the worst one. In order from worst, to needs some love from the devs
1) Ether Drake
2) Javorian Pox
3) Head of Zarqlan
4) Yuht Cyro Core.
5) Psionic Archive

The first three, as artifacts they need love. Both Passive and active effects are... disappointing (Ether Drake aside. +10% unity is nice, the active effect just drags in down so much). The Yuht has a good passive effect, but the active is again, disappointing. And the Psionic Archive... That's up there because it is literally no good unless you go for psionic ascension. Literally forces you to be psionic in order to make use of it.

 

[Oculument]

Personally, if I had to organize all the precursors in a tier list:

S: Cybrex
A: First League, Zroni (Spiritualist)
B: Baol
C: Vultaum, Irassians (Militarist)
D: Yuht
E: Zroni (non-Spiritualist), Irassians (non-Militarist)

Personally, lately I've begun to restart whenever I don't roll Cybrex or First League.

The Yuht Cryo Core is by far the most powerful relic in the late game because of its active effect. Your own ranking put the Cybrex Warforge on top because of its ability to make alloys, but you need to have the minerals to turn into alloys. The Yuht relic gives you alloys from nothing. It is equal to and exceeds the Cybrex relic when the fleet maintenance total for ten years is greater than 4 Cybrex activations, which is 20,000 alloys. A fleet upkeep large enough such that 20% of it is 166.67 alloys per month (20,000 divided by 120) is large enough to make the Yuht relic more powerful than the Cybrex relic. That is 250 some battleships, less if the battleships use more armor than shields. Yuht relic saves thousands in monthly energy as well.

In my current game as determined exterminators I have 627 battleships in 2387 (along with Titans and menacing corvettes etc.), I am the crisis and am fighting the rest of the Galaxy and the 25X Unbidden have just spawned so yes I would love to have the Yuht relic, would have loved to have it 50 years ago when alloys were most tight for me.

 

[oreopirate]

The Yuht Cryo Core is by far the most powerful relic in the late game because of its active effect. Your own ranking put the Cybrex Warforge on top because of its ability to make alloys, but you need to have the minerals to turn into alloys. The Yuht relic gives you alloys from nothing. It is equal to and exceeds the Cybrex relic when the fleet maintenance total for ten years is greater than 4 Cybrex activations, which is 20,000 alloys. A fleet upkeep large enough such that 20% of it is 166.67 alloys per month (20,000 divided by 120) is large enough to make the Yuht relic more powerful than the Cybrex relic. That is 250 some battleships, less if the battleships use more armor than shields. Yuht relic saves thousands in monthly energy as well.

In my current game as determined exterminators I have 627 battleships in 2387 (along with Titans and menacing corvettes etc.), I am the crisis and am fighting the rest of the Galaxy and the 25X Unbidden have just spawned so yes I would love to have the Yuht relic, would have loved to have it 50 years ago when alloys were most tight for me.

That's pretty niche to be honest. Granted I only play on 1x, but I usually have way more alloys than I need. Even when I running my FP that cleansed the galaxy. I was making enough that it didn't matter how much my upkeep was.
Also, sorry, but I redo your math, just so that it was an apples to apples comparison.
In order to save more than 5k alloys in ship upkeep via the Yuht Core, your fleets must be "worth" (total cost of rebuilding the fleets) roughly 138,889 alloys. If you have a navy that big, congrats, than by active effect alone, the Yuht core is more worth while then the Cybrex relic.

That said, the main value of the Cybrex is the free ringworld. With the relic only being of secondary concern. Granted the warforms are the best armies, but they hardly matter. And the 5k alloyso isn't too impressive. What is impressive, is +5% alloys each month.

 

[currylambchop]

You aren't wrong, but it's a lot less common, because many of the RP changes aren't directly conflicting with game balance. That said, often PGs will not want to do something for the game (like a new visual style of races) because it doesn't offer any mechanical interest. And in those cases, I'm firmly in the "let it happen" camp.

The biggest difference is that RPers mostly want to add things to the game (more options, more styles, more X). While powergamers are split between adding and changing things. And changing is where the biggest conflicts occur.

An example is when they gutted ringworld start because it was too OP in multiplayer. Now it's like life seeded and trash, because people were complaining it was OP.

 

[blahmaster6k]

True, but compared to the others, it's a bit underwhelming.
Cybrex- Ringworld, +5% alloys, cheap, strong armies, and on activation, gives you half of a Ringworld segment (5k alloys). Insight projects give mega structure as a tech option, and +10% megastructure build speed.
League- Relic world -> Ecumenopolus world. Insights give +15% research speed, tech options needed to make own ecumenopoli, and +10% building speed.
Irassian- Javorian Pox,+20 leader lifespan, and Pox bombardment. Insights give +20% bio research, and +5% pop growth.
Vultuam- Reality perforator -10% amenities usage, and makes ships stronger. Insights give +10% amenities, +15% Computing research
Baol- Last Baol makes the gaia world, and gives you four free pops. +10% growth speed/ +10% society research. Insights provide free tech, and 15% cheaper terraforming.
Zroni- Shroud stuff, not going into this because its so niche.

Yuht does grant those bonuses. But the relic itself the +1 pops on new colonies, and -20% ship upkeep for 10 years is... Rather underwhelming. The Psionic archive is useful for psionics, the vultuam is great for conquest, the Baol gives free pops and a gaia world, the League gives you a free relic world, and cybrex a ringworld.
All the OP is trying to say is that compared to the others, The Javorian Pox and Yuht Cryo core are underwhelming the artifacts need some love from the devs.

And hands down, the Cryo core is not the worst one. In order from worst, to needs some love from the devs
1) Ether Drake
2) Javorian Pox
3) Head of Zarqlan
4) Yuht Cyro Core.
5) Psionic Archive

The first three, as artifacts they need love. Both Passive and active effects are... disappointing (Ether Drake aside. +10% unity is nice, the active effect just drags in down so much). The Yuht has a good passive effect, but the active is again, disappointing. And the Psionic Archive... That's up there because it is literally no good unless you go for psionic ascension. Literally forces you to be psionic in order to make use of it.

I was never saying that it was the best one, just that it was very good in some circumstances and not completely worthless, as OP seemed to be saying that, see here:

I was refuting the points that the Yuht are useless after the early game.

the Yuht are so useless that if i get them before the 2210 i usually restart. they are that useless, their relic's passive is only good in the early game and the active effect is nowhere near worth that much influence.

Sure, the Cybrex and the First League are both much better, and the Zroni is a massive economy boost in the early game from selling zro and enabling psionic ascension. The Yuht aren't on par with those, that's for sure. But in my personal opinion, the Irassans and Vultaum are both worse than the Yuht. I couldn't care less about a bombardment stance and society is the least important research tree. For the Vultaum, their relic triumph only lasts for a very short time and the bonus is entirely dependent on RNG, meaning you can't rely on it to help you at all. Rolled shields when your ships have mostly armor? Tough luck.

I would prefer the weaker ones get buffed, yes. But the main point I'm trying to make is that it's not the end of the world if you get the Yuht.

 

[Numida]

the Yuht are so useless that if i get them before the 2210 i usually restart.

Wow, what a pussy.

They all have their pros and cons. And Yuhts are far more useful than Irassians with their chicken pox bombardment.
And it's funny you see precursors as something you are entitled to (spoiler alert, you are not, it's all random), not even taking into account the fact that you might not even get one as some empires share the same precursor.
The precursors are a bonus (a nice one if you're lucky) and with the majority of things in Stellaris, they are random and different usefulness, and that's one of the things that makes every game different. You get a good precursor? Nice. You get a bad one or none? Work your way out (or cry in your case).

 

[Zoomy]

Wow, what a pussy.

You get a bad one or none? Work your way out (or cry in your case).

You're not being your best self right now.

 

[Franton]

Well, some of them don't necessarily need to give something directly. The Yuht for instance being essentially Titanic Beasts could perhaps allow an even stronger version of a titanic beast as well.

The Irassians could perhaps have a unique medical building or something.
​

I never understood how titanic beasts can be precursors to a human-sized species.

 

[Archael90]

Precursors should have a little balance, but for me the ability to choose your precursor from empire creation screen would be great. Then in galaxy settings screen you would choose either precursors have to be random, chosen, or semi chosen*
* - In empire creation screen you would check box if you NEED this precursor to fully roleplay your empire or not, and in MP semi chosen precursor spawn would put chosen precursor for empires that checked box, and random for the rest.

 

[Casko]

I just wish that the Pox Bombardment Stance would you know.... be actually lethal to the pops you're bombarding........... In its current state it just does not kill biological pops fast enough.

Seriously I wish I could use it as a way to purge pops as Xenophile or some such. Be it to reduce pop based lag late game, or just be a mean person and reduce the pop of an Ecumenopolis from 100 pops to 10 in a rather rapid manner. (It is Biological warfare being used on an entire planet based on a space disease that wiped an entire civilization off the galactic map at one point after all)

I mean we can already purge entire species off the face of galaxy, enslave untold billions to mines. Run a communist necrophage state where Vampire mushroom Lenin is in charge of who lives and who dies in the name of workers liberations. Chip all your population against their will and put them in a chemical trance. what's some classy chemical warfare on planetary scale on the list of horrors you can do?

And to balance this, you'd simply need to make this bombardment start to cause the generic purge diplomatic malus in game.
or if you want to be spicy.. let the pox start to get out of hand and start to spread across the galaxy again as a kind of mini-crisis if you use it too much. Wouldn't that be fun?

 

[oreopirate]

I was never saying that it was the best one, just that it was very good in some circumstances and not completely worthless, as OP seemed to be saying that, see here:

I was refuting the points that the Yuht are useless after the early game.

I would prefer the weaker ones get buffed, yes. But the main point I'm trying to make is that it's not the end of the world if you get the Yuht.

Fair. I don't think that it's worthless, the +1 pops on new colonies is great. I usually play xenophiles and on 5x planets, so I always have more to settle. Planets, habitats, ringworlds. And with how pops work, I get the colony working faster.
But their active effect could use a little love, just because the odds of your ship upkeep being the stressor on your economy is unlikely. Unfortunately, that's pretty thematic, so I'm not sure how they could reasonably alter the activation effect either.

Wow, what a pussy.

They all have their pros and cons. And Yuhts are far more useful than Irassians with their chicken pox bombardment.
And it's funny you see precursors as something you are entitled to (spoiler alert, you are not, it's all random), not even taking into account the fact that you might not even get one as some empires share the same precursor.
The precursors are a bonus (a nice one if you're lucky) and with the majority of things in Stellaris, they are random and different usefulness, and that's one of the things that makes every game different. You get a good precursor? Nice. You get a bad one or none? Work your way out (or cry in your case).

Wow, language dude. Chillax. While I never reroll for ironman, for non-ironman games I will reroll.
Beyond that, you should always get the precursor. The games spawn anomalies for you if you didn't find enough, new systems always spawn close to your borders, or within them. So if you don't get them, it's your own fault for waiting until you were hemmed in to look for them. I almost always have my precursor by 2230.
But there is a valid point. If you are a hivemind, the psychic archive is useless. Because you can not choose psionic ascension.
So basic reasoning stands that something should reworked so that it is either useful to hiveminds, or hiveminds can psionically ascend.

I just wish that the Pox Bombardment Stance would you know.... be actually lethal to the pops you're bombarding........... In its current state it just does not kill biological pops fast enough.

Seriously I wish I could use it as a way to purge pops as Xenophile or some such. Be it to reduce pop based lag late game, or just be a mean person and reduce the pop of an Ecumenopolis from 100 pops to 10 in a rather rapid manner. (It is Biological warfare being used on an entire planet based on a space disease that wiped an entire civilization off the galactic map at one point after all)

I mean we can already purge entire species off the face of galaxy, enslave untold billions to mines. Run a communist necrophage state where Vampire mushroom Lenin is in charge of who lives and who dies in the name of workers liberations. Chip all your population against their will and put them in a chemical trance. what's some classy chemical warfare on planetary scale on the list of horrors you can do?

And to balance this, you'd simply need to make this bombardment start to cause the generic purge diplomatic malus in game.
or if you want to be spicy.. let the pox start to get out of hand and start to spread across the galaxy again as a kind of mini-crisis if you use it too much. Wouldn't that be fun?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we need plague mechanics!

 

[wyldmage]

Here's the problem. Roleplayers usually roll with the punches, and start a game with no goal in mind. So we like asymmetrical gameplay.
Asymmetrical gameplay, and balance do not mix. We saw this with the shattered Ringworld Origin. Several powergamers I know are unhappy with the change, because now it feels like a normal Prosperous Unification start, just with no resource bonus. Several roleplayers are unhappy since it doesn't feel unique and different anymore.
I'm alright with it, since I only used it for a power trip. Of the people that I know personally, I am the only one who doesn't hate the new ringworld origin, out of about ten people.

I'm actually the opposite, I hated Ringworld before the nerf, because it was just too ridiculous OP. It wasn't balanced in the slightest. And I consider myself a powergamer, not a roleplayer.

I do think the nerf went a bit too far, but hopefully it'll get a love-tap back up in power to make it worth taking again. But since the nerf, origins are overall in a much better place - the balance differential between P.U. and everything is better. And as long as you ignore Doomsday, which is just terrible on purpose, you really can pick any origin as a powergamer now. Before, you picked Ringworld, Resource Consolidation (the new most OP I think), or were dumb.

The issue - from a PG perspective - is that some powergamers hate nerfs to the OP thing they play. You see this ALL the time in MOBA games, as well as mobile games. Devs are afraid of nerfing things because of the hatred and fury of players who were abusing how good it was. So, instead, they buff the weak stuff, and cause power creep. Which just shows that my PG/RP division is way over-simplified (because there are many groups the comprise each, and often disagree with each other).

We have the custodians team now who should be paying greater attention to balance, so that's a large part of why I wanted to get this discussion going again. Let's get the game into a place where balance is better, AND roleplayers can have fun with any choice.

------

That said, RPers complaining about the Ringworld nerf confuses me. They often defend Doomsday and say not to buff it, because they WANT a ridiculously bad option to play as. Ringworlds are still thematic, and have all their core pros and cons - just scaled down to not be ridiculous free resources at the start of the game anymore. It's still a start that lets you get insane numbers of pops in your home system. And so forth. So I have a bit of trouble understanding why Ringworld is "unplayable" to any/some roleplayer types.

 

[oreopirate]

That said, RPers complaining about the Ringworld nerf confuses me. They often defend Doomsday and say not to buff it, because they WANT a ridiculously bad option to play as. Ringworlds are still thematic, and have all their core pros and cons - just scaled down to not be ridiculous free resources at the start of the game anymore. It's still a start that lets you get insane numbers of pops in your home system. And so forth. So I have a bit of trouble understanding why Ringworld is "unplayable" to any/some roleplayer types.

Yeah, I have no idea either. I'm a roleplayer, and know five others IRL, and four PG. I'm the only person who is okay with it. Everyone else dislikes the nerf.
Then, recently before Lem dropped, I got into an argument with a PG on the forum who thought the nerf went too far and wanted research districts, despite that being the source of the origin's OP.
It isn't my favorite anyways for rping, I only had it for one empire. The Righteous Flame, a blood court founded by a sister ship of the CoM that landed on a ringwolrd and was taken in by the aliens. After being horribly mistreated, they started a civil war, and triggered the crash of the interloper through the ringworld.
Beyond that Empire (now that ringworld preference comes with ringworld origin), I barely touch it. It's not unplayable, just bores me. Mostly in favor of On Shoulders of Giants.

 

[Nebbie Zebbie]

Instead of the game handing you a precursor, it should just hand you "leads". Whichever you follow up on first would be your precursor that you can find the home system of, while others you could still find interesting sites for, but their insights would be nothing more than things to trade away to the empires with them as a precursor.

The Yuht absolutely need a buff, regardless. The relic's passive should include -10% on building energy upkeep due to better cooling technologies. Also, it would help some if Irassia and Yuthaan Majoris were Tomb Worlds instead of barren.

 

[currylambchop]

And it's funny you see precursors as something you are entitled to (spoiler alert, you are not, it's all random), not even taking into account the fact that you might not even get one as some empires share the same precursor.

Well I am because I play using the Selected Precursor mod. When my empire is rping as survivors of the Zroni then it would be stupid for them not to get the Zroni artifact.

 

[currylambchop]

That said, RPers complaining about the Ringworld nerf confuses me. They often defend Doomsday and say not to buff it, because they WANT a ridiculously bad option to play as. Ringworlds are still thematic, and have all their core pros and cons - just scaled down to not be ridiculous free resources at the start of the game anymore. It's still a start that lets you get insane numbers of pops in your home system. And so forth. So I have a bit of trouble understanding why Ringworld is "unplayable" to any/some roleplayer types

Ringworld was supposed to be the easy start, but now it’s just worse life seeded. Of course there would be complaints.

 

[Numida]

Beyond that, you should always get the precursor. The games spawn anomalies for you if you didn't find enough, new systems always spawn close to your borders, or within them. So if you don't get them, it's your own fault for waiting until you were hemmed in to look for them. I almost always have my precursor by 2230.

If you play alone, that's quite achievable. But if we are talking about some real competition, like, for example, multiplayer, it becomes a challenge.

or hiveminds can psionically ascend.

Hahahahaha! You're joking, right? Hiveminds are already overpowered compared to regular empires. In my opinion, they should be stripped even of the single ascension they have. Gestalt is basically a regular empire with much less challenges.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, we need plague mechanics!

Yes!

Well I am because I play using the Selected Precursor mod. When my empire is rping as survivors of the Zroni then it would be stupid for them not to get the Zroni artifact.

So you play using a mod and you get what you want. What's your point again?

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Here's the problem. Roleplayers usually roll with the punches, and start a game with no goal in mind. So we like asymmetrical gameplay.
Asymmetrical gameplay, and balance do not mix. We saw this with the shattered Ringworld Origin. Several powergamers I know are unhappy with the change, because now it feels like a normal Prosperous Unification start, just with no resource bonus. Several roleplayers are unhappy since it doesn't feel unique and different anymore.
I'm alright with it, since I only used it for a power trip. Of the people that I know personally, I am the only one who doesn't hate the new ringworld origin, out of about ten people.

I wasn't so sure about it, but after playing it it still feels distinctive enough for me. I like the changes since I can now play it without it being an autowin anymore.