Precursor Unbalance Issues

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CrazyJ

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i want to start this commentary off with a statement that this is not a rant or a complaint it is simply my honest observations as to the issues with the precursor empires. i love stellaris which is why issue like these really annoy me.

The main issue is that they are incredibly unbalanced, from the near useless Yuht to the overpowered cybrex there is a major disparity in terms of what you get out of it. the yuht offer very little in terms of their relic, that'd be fine if their home world was amazing. look at the first league whose home world can either be the tech or alloy capitol of you empire if you get them early enough, they have no relic at all but with how good their home world and secrets project they are balanced. the Yuht are so useless that if i get them before the 2210 i usually restart. they are that useless, their relic's passive is only good in the early game and the active effect is nowhere near worth that much influence.

then there is the zroni, the irrassians, and the baol. all of which are amazing in combination with the right empire type. the problem is that in the wrong empire type they are mostly useless, in the hands of a pacifist synth empire the irrassian relic is near useless, in the hands of materialists the zroni are useless, and the baol are reasonably good for pretty much anyone but for machines and synths they are mostly useless. the point i'm making is that these precursors are only good under the right circumstances which still makes them better than the yuht, but if you are playing an empire type that doesn't work with your precursor(or the yuht period) you have only two options; you can either keep going and be considerably weaker than you could have been had you gotten the right precursor, or you can restart until you get the right one.

that'd be fine if all the precursors were situational, it'd make sense and i wouldn't mind them being random since it does make sense from a realism perspective. the problem is that they aren't all situational, some are universally good or universally bad, and it's juat such a mixed bag. that'd be fine if they weren't random, but since they are you are trusting the future of your empire to a random number generator. the whole thing is inconsistent which makes it a lot less fun.

I've stated the problem in my eyes, now onto the solution., add some way to choose your precursor, or put some more balance work
in. since the simple choice slider, or maybe a screen similar to the origins menu would involve considerably less work that the balancing i think that's likely be the better choice from a business perspective.

a perfectly balanced stellaris is likely impossible and it's hardly worth the devs time to try and achieve the impossible, but the precursors are just plain ridiculous. i adore this game and have been playing for well over 3 years, this has annoyed me since ancient relics, please look into this.
 
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CrazyJ

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Even adding an increased weight to get certain precursors for certain empires would be amazing, such as materialists having a lower chance at finding the zroni
 
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in the hands of materialists the zroni are useless

Apart from allowing materialists to go psionic ascension if they want (far from useless), the amount of Zro generation is great. I had a game where I crashed my economy so badly by seizing enough territory with unhappy residents and messily built AI planets that every single resource other than Zro went negative at once, some of them staying that way for years, and I was able to keep my economy afloat just by selling the Zro.

add some way to choose your precursor,

A limited veto setup of some sort (like veto 1 or 2 precursors) would allow eliminating the most useless for your empire type and allow you to avoid the issue of randomly getting the same precursor 3 out of 4 games, while still enabling the randomness that I think is fairly important.

put some more balance work

Precursors shouldn't be equally useful to every empire type but the Irassians and the Yuht do need to be tweaked as they don't really do all that much that's interesting, as all the others do. Pox bombardment is sort of interesting, but bombardment is pretty generally bad and a new way of bombarding to tomb world doesn't really help. Give them something interesting and useful and I think that would address it.
 
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Waffen9999

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Well, some of them don't necessarily need to give something directly. The Yuht for instance being essentially Titanic Beasts could perhaps allow an even stronger version of a titanic beast as well.

The Irassians could perhaps have a unique medical building or something.
 
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CrazyJ

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i did overlook the thing with the zro,but the thing is with the way i play, if i'm going psionic i don't play materialist , if i'm playing synths i don't play spiritualist. it is possible to do both but it is generally not worth it at leat for me. my main issue with the zroni is that if you get them and were planning to go synths you are basically shoehorned into going psi since you'd be an idiot to do otherwise, i hate the lack of choice. if you go ahead with synths or the only benefit is a ton of zro which is only good to sell. if you choose to use it as a pillar of your economy it's value sinks very quickly, not to the point where it's impossible to use it to power your entire nation since there is a minimum price, but it can be impractical. remember that this is not a definitive guide or a data sheet, it is simply my commentary on my issues with precursors
 
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CrazyJ

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seriously the yuht are useless, they badly need a buff. i'm not asking for star-craft level balance, but a precursor that people don't curse when they encounter them would be nice. i have yet to see a single person find a practical use for them. i'm ok with uninteresting effects if they are useful, look at the vultaum, their story is kinda meh and their relic is just a buff that makes your ships stronger for a year, not the strongest relic or the most interesting but it is practical. the cybrex are incredible strong even if their relic is somewhat meh, the ring world plus mega-engineering early unlock is amazing. the yuht suffer from the worst of all of these, their relic is near useless, it's uninteresting, their secrets project is rubbish, and their home system is completely and utterly generic. not only are they weak, they don't even have an engaging story or interesting relic to make up for it. there is not benefit to the yuht that i am aware of. the other precursors are somewhat unbalanced which is irritating but all of them have a use and in the right hands can be amazing, the yuht are the sole exception
 
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...no?

It guarantees they get the otherwise difficult-to-obtain Psionic Theory technology and gives them so much Zro they'd be crazy NOT to go down the Psionic Ascension path anyways.

I usually sell the zro for more income as materialists. But for machines zroni is completely useless they don't get psionic theory tech and they can't mine zro. The only thing they can get is the relic active which is a bit sad for a precursor reward.
 
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On the core principle of the Precursors giving alternate rewards, I entirely disagree. This game needs more asymmetrical game play - not less. So normally materialists would go Synth ascension, maybe after finding the Zroni you change your mind and go Psionic. That option is a good thing - it is a different path to walk - a different story to discover. Those sort of scenarios is what we need more of.

Ideally all of the precursors would be brought up to the archaeology story line that the Baol and Zroni use. Is is far superior method to the original. In the process, the weaker precursors need their home worlds/relics also brought into line from a power/balance perspective.

Having all 8 precurors give a generic bonus that is usable by any empire in any situation is not what I would like to see at all.
 
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HugsAndSnuggles

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On the core principle of the Precursors giving alternate rewards, I entirely disagree. This game needs more asymmetrical game play - not less.
Sure, but what kind of asymmetrical gameplay options does Zroni precursor opens up to gestalts? Getting shafted? Asymmetrical gameplay would be along the lines of precursors having different rewards, but rewards of comparable power. Having those rewards range all the way from OP to useless with no way to influence that is not called "asymmetrical gameplay", it's called "bad balancing".
 
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Some thoughts on correctly identifying the problem. There is no asymmetry here - precursors are player-exclusive. I wouldn't call it bad balancing either though, because there is nothing to balance here. It's variable setup, just like sometimes the game will have the Sanctuary and sometimes it will not. I would call getting the Zro as machine empire: poor GameMastering, as that feels like the best analogue - if the RPG players don't have a rogue/thief character, the Game Master should not present adventures that rely on lockpicking.
 
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seriously the yuht are useless, they badly need a buff. i'm not asking for star-craft level balance, but a precursor that people don't curse when they encounter them would be nice. i have yet to see a single person find a practical use for them. i'm ok with uninteresting effects if they are useful, look at the vultaum, their story is kinda meh and their relic is just a buff that makes your ships stronger for a year, not the strongest relic or the most interesting but it is practical. the cybrex are incredible strong even if their relic is somewhat meh, the ring world plus mega-engineering early unlock is amazing. the yuht suffer from the worst of all of these, their relic is near useless, it's uninteresting, their secrets project is rubbish, and their home system is completely and utterly generic. not only are they weak, they don't even have an engaging story or interesting relic to make up for it. there is not benefit to the yuht that i am aware of. the other precursors are somewhat unbalanced which is irritating but all of them have a use and in the right hands can be amazing, the yuht are the sole exception
I like the Yuht relic. The passive effect is quite nice. Yeah, the active effect isn't much, but most relic active effects are terrible, or at least not worth the influence cost.
 
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So normally materialists would go Synth ascension, maybe after finding the Zroni you change your mind and go Psionic.

Then you are objectively playing wrong, however. Psionic Ascension still sucks compared to Synth.

The passive effect is quite nice.

No, no it isn't. Even under optimal circumstances you won't get to the precursor homesystem before 2230 or so, and how many colonies are you seriously gonna found beyond that? Even at high habitable world settings it won't be too many. Gaining 20 extra pops over the rest of the game is not worth not restarting for a better precursor. In fact, the Baol relic is strictly better.

Personally, if I had to organize all the precursors in a tier list:

S: Cybrex
A: First League, Zroni (Spiritualist)
B: Baol
C: Vultaum, Irassians (Militarist)
D: Yuht
E: Zroni (non-Spiritualist), Irassians (non-Militarist)

Personally, lately I've begun to restart whenever I don't roll Cybrex or First League.
 
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On the core principle of the Precursors giving alternate rewards, I entirely disagree. This game needs more asymmetrical game play - not less. So normally materialists would go Synth ascension, maybe after finding the Zroni you change your mind and go Psionic. That option is a good thing - it is a different path to walk - a different story to discover. Those sort of scenarios is what we need more of.

Ideally all of the precursors would be brought up to the archaeology story line that the Baol and Zroni use. Is is far superior method to the original. In the process, the weaker precursors need their home worlds/relics also brought into line from a power/balance perspective.

Having all 8 precurors give a generic bonus that is usable by any empire in any situation is not what I would like to see at all.
the issue with getting the zromni as a materialist is that it in effect forces you to go psionic which i truly despise, it's not just that it gives the option to go psionic, i don't mind that part, but the fact that you are essentially forced into it bothers me. if you get the zroni you kinda have to play psionic if you want to take advantage of your relic.
but gestalts are just generally screwd by a lot of the precursors, for machines only a few of them are any good, hives are a bit better off but since hives kinda suck at present i rarely play them.
 
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BlackUmbrellas

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Then you are objectively playing wrong, however.
No such thing.

Even under optimal circumstances you won't get to the precursor homesystem before 2230 or so, and how many colonies are you seriously gonna found beyond that?
...lots?

The majority, in fact, in my experience. Sometimes I don't even colonize AT ALL by 2230.
 
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No such thing.


...lots?

The majority, in fact, in my experience. Sometimes I don't even colonize AT ALL by 2230.
well that means you tend to play a very slow relaxed game. a lot of people don't do that, i can respect that you play your own way, but the one extra colonist is only good in the early game, most other relics have some use once you are past the exploration phase but once you enter the conquest/diplomacy phase the relic becomes mostly useless, and really the one extra colonist is only good if you are playing wide anyway. if you plan to have less than 20 planets by endgame because you hate micro(me) it's rubbish. 20 extra people may be nothing to sneeze at if there were't so many better options, i get more use out of the zroni playing as machines than i do from the yuht. at least a bunch of free zro from the colonies is nice
 
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Like actually mining it? :D
If they could do something with Zro, they could easily do it without Zroni, making Zroni just about as pointless as they are now.
you do get zro if you colonize all ofn the zroni colonies, but their home world is still useless