[Pre-WIP] Muslim Enhancement

[Cardinal Sin]

What is a Pre-WIP?

So far, ME is just an idea, a concept. Hence it is called a Pre-WIP: this is not even work in progress yet, this is just a gathering of ideas, proposals and gauging of how far my modding abilities go - so far, they are extremely limited but I hope to learn. However, for that, I will need help of other people who like the idea too.

When will it become a WIP?

When the devs release their plans on how to overhaul decadence. This overhaul might be so great that no more work is needed. This overhaul may be ok but some more refinement is needed from a mod. Or, this overhaul may be pants. If it is pants, this mod will go all the way (of course if nothing unforeseen in my RL comes up). If it is ok, it will have some features in it to increase immersion. I doubt the patch will be so awesome that there is no room to improve^^

So what is ME?

As the name says, it is a project to improve Muslims. In particular, should the patch not exceed exceptations, this mod will strive towards excising decadence in every facet from the Muslim gameplay (so as to stay at 25% permanently, without any effects on the game in any case) and substitute it with a more believable system relying upon the factions system. Also, this mod aims at introducing the main legal schools as crown laws, adding lots of events (including Sufism, the conflict between Arab and Non-Arab Muslims, Quran Readings, Silk Road and so forth), tweaking a few things, changing CBs and some other major things.

So this is an anti-decadent jihad?

By the beard of the prophet, so it is! Decadence is just not fun really. This is not because it is unmanageable; it is not fun because it does not make you make decisions, it relies on the premise that the shortcomings of your 16th cousin should be the reason for your overthrow, and because it restricts your roleplay.

Of course, I have to point out again - my bitching about decadence will end if Paradox makes decadence into something incredible. I shall put many of these ideas to rest and focus on immersion. However, if their suggestions do not convince me, I will go for the fully monty.

What do you suggest instead?

Muslims are very powerful and need nerfs if decadence is taken away from them!

These nerfs are as follows, as proposed by me:

-Unlanded Muslim characters get a trait that nerfs their fertility so they do not breed like rabbits. Islam very much emphasises the need for the ability of a man to provide before he should found a family. Unlanded Muslim man can simply not afford to have lots of children; they have no money for their upbringing. (I suppose a more elegant solution would be to bar them from marrying, but I do not know how to implement this and whether this would not be too harsh a measure). This trait will be be a balance against the sprawling Muslim families that ensue if you have no check in place, and will force you to make decisions - should I land my second son and risk a revolt if I succeed but make sure that the family has heirs, or should I not risk it?

-Two new factions: the Revolution Faction and the Taifa Faction.
The revolution faction can appoint anybody as a pretender to your throne - your family, another family - and press their demand if they are big enough. This substitutes the decadence revolts as this will probably be the thing that removes your family from power and gets another family onto your throne. This models itself upon what happened in Egypt during the Mameluk coup d'etat and the Abbasid revolt.
The Taifa faction is a big weaker: however, what they demand is the destruction of your top liege title, meaning independence for everybody and the loss of your sultanate - you will have to contend with an emirate. This models itself upon what happened in Spain in the early 1000s.

-NK nerf: So you think you play NK to avoid those factions? Too bad. I want to keep the decadence revolt doomstack for one reason - to invade you if you are on NK mode too long After all, these are desert tribes seeing a weak, ineffective realm that is so badly governed they can invade with impunity!

-Succession: I will keep it as it is because I am too lazy to make it any different Also, agnatic open is ok enough in terms of modelling what was going on in many Islamic states. Nonetheless, I will nerf it insofar as it will make your vassals dislike you more. However, you have the possibility to change to seniority, which represents a form of a more archaic, tribal succession - this will make your vassals be ok with you, but you will have old rulers.

-Legal crown traditions: these are crown laws, so you can only change them as a top liege how is at least a sultan, and then at most only once per lifetime. You can have no legal tradition - but then, you miss out. You'd better change it! You can go for Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi'i or Maliki, each with their own perks and advantages to suit your style of play, allowing you to min-max a little bit as you go through the game - as historic Muslim rulers did with the legal traditions of their countries! Hanafis should make vassals happy (plus culture tech bonus), Shafi'i should provide for some martial bonus (plus martial tech bonus), Maliki will be tax efficient (plus economy tech bonus) and Hanbali will provide you with prestige and piety (with a small bonus for all techs), for example. If these are to powerful I can also create pitfalls and downsides for each of them.

-Different CBs: Now those are just pie in the sky things but I'll just go blue sky thinking right now. I hope to make it so that Muslims cannot wage de jure wars any more; meaning that they have to rely on their particular causus belli - but once in their lifetime (given the right traits) they might use a special causus belli allowing them to invade a whole duchy - or even a kingdom in very rare cases (perhaps if their legal tradition is Shafi'i and have some other traits?)!

What about mod compatibility?

I hope to make this mod highly compatible with HIP, which I think is the very best of mods. I think ME would stack well with its spirit as I hope to make Muslims more immersive, historically accurate and fun to play with!

Why did I write that?

I wanted to open my idea to public scrutiny, and see if anybody at all is interested. Also, I hope to get some more ideas and perhaps some modding support if I need any (trust me, I will!).

 

[superskierpat]

This is very interesting! Especially the part about legal crown additions, though it would be fun if they were more than just flat bonuses to tech and stats.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I watching this.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

This is very interesting! Especially the part about legal crown additions, though it would be fun if they were more than just flat bonuses to tech and stats.

Well, my thinking was that the tech bonus would not manifest itself in some sort of flat way - rather, it would trigger a number of events that propel your tech (with options where you can spend money to get an even better bonus). Also, sometimes events come up where you have to give judgment as a Muslim ruler. If you have not decided for any legal tradition you can give any judgment, but if you have settled on a legal tradition you will be barred from choosing some outcomes. For example, if you are Hanbali you will probably not have the choice to give a lenient, liberal, popular sentence

@CYbr: really glad to hear this

 

[superskierpat]

Also, sometimes events come up where you have to give judgment as a Muslim ruler. If you have not decided for any legal tradition you can give any judgment, but if you have settled on a legal tradition you will be barred from choosing some outcomes. For example, if you are Hanbali you will probably not have the choice to give a lenient, liberal, popular sentence

Thats seems a rather flavorful way of doing it, keep on the right track!

 

[Cardinal Sin]

With massive thanks to eustacethemonk:

This mod will also include the institution of the waqf, a kind of Islamic religious land trust that was extremely popular in the Middle Ages. You would be able to create a waqf which would give you prestige/piety/a tech bonus, but in exchange will drain you of money. You would also have the option to later investigate and dissolve the waqf!

 

[elvain]

This looks very interesting

 

[The_Blind_One]

I hope you manage to bring this to fruition specialy if the mechanics haven't been properly addressed in the upcoming expansion/patch. I specialy like your idea for a taifa system.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

Thank you I hope I manage to get everything working exactly as I hope to! With the new decadence mechanism, I may not completely ditch it provided it works as intended - I hope it will be possible to give opinion modifiers for decadence so as to encourage vassals to overthrow rulers or dissolve states with horrid decadence.

 

[pirro]

I'm looking foward to this

 

[victimizer]

-Two new factions: the Revolution Faction and the Taifa Faction.

A "taifa" faction should exist in any realm with several lords of different culture. Andalusia really broke apart due to the variety of ethnic groups among the Anadalusi.

 

[pirro]

A "taifa" faction should exist in any realm with several lords of different culture. Andalusia really broke apart due to the variety of ethnic groups among the Anadalusi.

Among those, the andalusís were one The others were the "slavs" and the berbers. The muwallads had a goth past, but aside from a few of them (Banu Qasi) were integrated within the arab nobility by the time of the Caliphate.

 

[Konstantinos XV]

Coincidentally I was in the process of writing two large posts regarding the Middle East (The Structure of Politics in the Muslim Commonwealth, Decadence: The Rise and Fall of Muslim Dynasties). Maghreb and Andalucia are my conspicuous blind spots.

From the above, there should be quite strict requirements for the revolution faction. Normally a minority and/or weak claim and naturally large decadence. "Anyone to your throne" usually just so happens to be almost exclusively vizier/marshal/atabeg/regent. The throne is seized by a strongman, not by a weak emir everyone likes. Would've been so awesome if there were factions vying for government positions. /wishfulthinking

The name "taifa" faction grates on my ear. So out of place outside Andalus. Golden Horde was splintering into khanates, Abbasid empire - into shahdoms and emirates, Seljuk realms into beyliks and sultanates. I'm almost willing to argue for calling it the anarchy faction.

Contrary to you I'm all for Muslims waging de jure wars for duchies left and right. However I'm also strongly in favor of fragmentation of Middle Eastern realms to make sure that constant independence factions make it much harder to reassemble empires, as described in section 4 of the decadence post. Preliminary drafts:

Spoiler

+Maghreb to the west from Mashriq

Edessa of course goes to Jazira in the final version, Shirvan/Azerbaijan+Derbent - to kingdom of Azerbaijan

Fertility trait is awesome.

A "taifa" faction should exist in any realm with several lords of different culture. Andalusia really broke apart due to the variety of ethnic groups among the Anadalusi.

Objection. The faction should behave in such a way everywhere because it happened in one Muslim realm? Throughout the Middle East ethnicities of ruling groups seem to be quite insignificant in regard to their impact on political developments.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

Thank you so much for your input I probably should figure out a way to restrict revolutionary factions so they do not overthrow rulers every 5 years for the lulz. No idea how to do that yet. It depends on whether I will let decadence stay or throw it out of the window. Also I am not sure if factions can be modded so as to be able to put forward certain candidates only... and I have to admit, I do not want to implement a system that can be easily gamed (by exchanging viziers, guardians etc).

You are right, taifa is more of an Andalusian thing. It was just the first and most well known example for a Muslim disintegration I could think of I don't like the anarchy faction really though because it reminds me of the Sex Pistols

Hmm yeah I suppose better de jure maps would be great but I actually really dislike all those empires - I think this game only needs three de jure empires (HRE, ERE, Persia)+India+titular empire tiers for caliphates but this is a different point entirely. I just think that for Muslims the whole de jure thing should be deemphasised especially as they already have good county conquest cbs.

In any case, should I decide to keep decadence, its main effect in my mod will be vassal opinions - so that vassals will hate you if you are decadent and be keen to boot your dynasty out (as opposed to desert armies magically appearing). Should I kick it out opinion modifiers will take over to an even more pronounced degree.

 

[Konstantinos XV]

There was an interesting argument in the current decadence thread of CK2 forum.

Guys, guys, guys. If you are trying to create a universe where it makes sense in realism/historical terms to have people overthrow you because your 3rd cousin twice removed on your father's side drinks too much, don't. It won't happen. The point of it all it to make you land relatives and have wars, much like the pagans gavelkind. Except it doesn't really work. It still won't work with the new model, from the sound of it, but at least there is a lot less collateral damage.

Might be interesting to actually make gameplay distinction between how landed relatives and unrelated vassals behave. It might not have to be too strongly grounded in reality, but more clearly differed to offer different gameplay styles. For example, what if relatives couldn't join taifa faction (maybe able to join simple independence regardless of de jure boundaries if decadence is high, or be more willing to put forward pretenders from the family), while contributing to decadence when landed (I'm willing to argue that only landed characters should contribute it). The threat of unrelated governors, of course, being destruction of the highest title and/or possible revolution.

 

[pirro]

Actually, an independence faction combined with actual, serious invasions would do it. The caliphate dessintegrates, some berbers/turks/bedoins fill in the space while some lands become independent.

 

[superskierpat]

Depending on if the "Decadent" trait can be modded (I.E. Mod who gets it), we should be able to make it only happen to landed characters of your dynasty and their direct family, councilmen of your dynasty, however far from your branch, should also be vulnerable to the decadent trait. In fact, I'd be a proponent for any member of your administration to count towards your family decadence.

Ps: Though this brings to mind that many people saying that your twice removed cousin should not count toward your dynasty decadence are wrong, since any memeber of your dynasty, however far removed, would probably still have a small part in your administration, even if it is only the role of a captain in one garrison of your army.

 

[Portal]

Decadence should really be replaced with a global Corruption mechanic.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

Hmm, I think making any related AI not join in any taifa faction or revolutionary faction for that matter is a good idea - this would be an even greater incentive for you to land your relatives, apart from worries that your family might die out. They would, of course, still be able to join or start a faction pushing their claim to the throne or use the good old independence faction which at least will not destroy your title.

I actually think characters should not only produce decadence when landed, this would be too big a disincentive to landing your relatives - and after all, landing relatives will come back to bite you in the next succession crisis. Also, I think unlanded Muslims should have decreased fertility, decreasing prestige, enhanced intrigue and a hatred of anybody in their dynasty who is landed (still need to figure out how to mod that).

I think I will probably leave decadence - after all superskierpat is right, ruling a country was family business for Muslims - but I suppose I could couple this with nerfing the effects of decadence a bit (to make it still relevant, especially given the opinion penalties associated with high decadence in my prospective mod, but not completely overarching any more) and keeping the decadence invaders around (though decreasing their likelihood) so they can sort out NKMers (though for balance reason I may nerf NKM even more in my mod) and provide an additional challenge for decadent rulers. After all this is kind of what happened when the Seljuqs invaded.

Also, an idea would be to mod the straightening out request a bit so that rulers cannot ask relatives to straighten out if these rulers are craven ('he might punch me if i ask!'), proud ('I will never admit there is anything wrong with my family'), content ('everything is dandy') or patient ('he'll sort himself out eventually, just give him time').

I kinda like this as it forces you to make decisions rather than just spam 'straighten up' demands to make everything go away - either you land your relatives and deal with succession crises, or you land non-members and deal with taifas and revolutionaries if you have high decadence (you are likely to rake it up if you have inefficient rulers), risk having a dearth of heirs, and of course disaffected members of your dynasty hating you and wanting to kill you.

BTW I think making a global corruption mechanic is interesting but outside the purview of this mod

 

[unmerged(52491)]

Interesting mod and one that was long due. As someone pretty interested in medieval Islamic history, I've thought about making something similar to this but I've never done serious modding work and don't even know where to begin. Just take the ideas below as food for thought:

To me three things were missing in SoI: 1. Sufism 2. Nomadic Tribes and 3. Mamluks. Without these you can't really accurately represent what was going on in the eastern part of the map. Sufism is theoretically the easiest one and can be handled with events, decisions, traits and maybe province modifiers or special buildings. I'm happy to hear you are planning to include them. Maybe you can even add different tariqahs (such as Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Mevlevi, Qalandari etc.) with different events or modifiers.

Mamluks can be represented somewhat with retinues but how can we include the delicious political intrigue they inevitably bring? We would need 'Mamluk Captain' characters that we can interact with. Maybe it would be a better idea if they were treated like pseudo Holy Orders that would become your vassals and could demand empty holdings from you to build their castles. In this way you would also solve their succession issues.

Nomadic Tribes are the hardest one in my opinion. We would need a way to differentiate them from normal 'vassals' and we want them to be able to migrate, obviously, and be a general nuisance. I can't come up with anything for this one other that province modifiers but they are boring frankly.

Also Regarding Sufism, I though it could be linked to decadence and become another reliable way to combat decadence. Patronize Sufi orders, gain the support of their Pirs, build tombs or even get initiated as a Sufi yourself and you get the sympathy of ordinary folk as a pious person. (The in-game piety would be strictly a measurement of a more scholarly, Sharia related understanding of piety) But there is a catch: Sufism comes with greater risk of heresy in your lands or even lower global Religious Authority as Islam would slip beyond the control of scholars and Caliphs.