Pre-Levantine/'Syriac' Culture?

[Almaron]

Could there be an extra cultural group added to the Mashriq for the earliest start dates? The area is predominantly Christian in-game, yet the inhabitants are shown already fully Arabicised and represented by the 'Levantine' culture in 769, even though we have Copts and Assyrians who are also Christian and who were ruled by the Caliphates for roughly the same period of time maintaining their cultures for much longer in the game. I know Arabisation happened as a result of people adopting new customs in order to get ahead under their new overlords, but this doesn't seem quite right...

I can think of two different ways this could be done, TBH; the simpler and easier option would be just renaming 'Assyrian' to 'Syriac' and using it as a deliberately broad cultural group (in the same fashion as Greek, Italian and German, for instance), or creating a new 'Aramaic' group and using it alongside 'Assyrian'...perhaps as a Byzantine cultural group as well, or perhaps both 'Aramaic' and 'Assyrian' could be put into a new 'Syriac' cultural group together (or perhaps they could even be combined with the Israelite cultural group, which would make things a tad easier for Jewish rulers looking to retake the Holy Land). Anyway, after this it'd just be a matter of replacing the Levantine culture with the appropriate precursor culture (Syriac, or Aramaic in the west and Assyrian in the east) for provinces that still have a Christian religion of some sort, and then also add a cultural conversion event similar in nature to the Frankish>French events that cause Aramaic or Assyrian cultures to flip to 'Levantine' if their religion switches to Islam AND they have a ruler from the Arab cultural group (most of the Caliphs have Bedouin culture, so Levantine wouldn't show up normally).

Should make gameplay in this area a bit more interesting, too...I mean, breaking free from a blob Empire is always more interesting if you're another culture group and there's a reason to NOT just play as the blob Empire! And it'd allow for interesting AU scenarios...be a Syriac King, and work on making Nestorianism the predominant Christian faith (or, if someone mods it in, a Pagan Semitic faith of some sort)! Or perhaps be a Crusader King and switch to Aramaic instead of Levantine, just to make things more difficult for yourself! =p

EDIT: Here's an example of how it could look in 769;
https://sta.sh/026x359jp5to

 

[gotsis]

I agree. Personally, I would say we should have Aramaic culture for the Palestine/Israel region and Syriac culture for Syria with Assyrian as it currently is in the northern part of Mesopotamia. I also would like to add that Persian culture should also not so easily be changed to Bedouin culture since the Persians, enlarge, adopted Islam and so never became `Arabized' like many of the other regional cultures conquered by the Caliphate. Thus, I believe that Persian culture provinces should get a reduced chance of being converted to Bedouin cultured provinces especially if they are already Muslim.

 

[Rags17]

FWIW I created an Aramaic culture for a personal minimod, complete with name lists, patronymics etc. The mod adds events for charcters who take the Scholarship or Theology focus to "work back" their culture or religion all the way to Aramaic, Old Hebrew, generic Pagan, Karaite etc.

The culture itself is a tiny file in case anyone wants a copy.

 

[Almaron]

Ooh, that sounds very cool! I'm working on a mod like this myself, TBH, but I've not managed to get as far as sorting out namelists for Aramaic...pretty sure I just copied the Assyrian names for now as placeholders. What names did you use?

 

[Rags17]

Ooh, that sounds very cool! I'm working on a mod like this myself, TBH, but I've not managed to get as far as sorting out namelists for Aramaic...pretty sure I just copied the Assyrian names for now as placeholders. What names did you use?

Here you go. PM me if you want the entire mod, I also made up Koine Greek, Thamudic, Ancient Hebrew, Avestan and Vedic. I can't remember where I got the names from, I think I did a Google search and combined it with a bit of biblical trawling and other research for patr name chance etc.

Spoiler: Aramaic culture definition

    aramaic = {
        graphical_cultures = { byzantinegfx muslimgfx }
        color = { 0.80 0.70 0.40 }
        
        used_for_random = no
        allow_in_ruler_designer = yes
        
        parent = levantine_arabic
        
        modifier = default_culture_modifier
                
        male_names = {
            Abaya Abaye Abba Abdima Achina Akh-es-samain Asa Avdima Avdimi Avira Bar Bar-abba Bar-nabha Bar-talmai Bar-timai Bar-tolmai Chama Chanin Chanina Chaninai Chinena Chunya Dimi Dunanu Hanina Idan Ila Kaiapha Karna Katsiu Muna Nahir Nahor Nahur Nechunya Nehor Nehorai Nur Oran Raca Rachim Rahim Raka Raz Saba Sabah Sami Sagi Sava Shai Shama Sheraga Shraga Sima Talia Taliah Talmai Talya Tauma Thaddai Timai Tolmai Ukba Yeshua
        }
        female_names = {
            Adva Alya Anena Anina Chayuta China Chiyuta Duvsha Hayuta Hina Mahalia Mehalia Meiriona Nura Raz Saba Sabah Sava Sima Talia Taliah Talya Zeita Zeta
        }

        from_dynasty_prefix = "el "

        male_patronym = "son of "
        female_patronym = "daughter of "
        prefix = yes

        # Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grf_name_chance = 40
        mat_grf_name_chance = 40
        father_name_chance = 20
        
        # Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grm_name_chance = 50
        mat_grm_name_chance = 50
        mother_name_chance = 0
    }

 

[Silva]

or, if someone mods it in, a Pagan Semitic faith of some sort)

That's already a thing. The Dido's Legacy mod on the workshop has the Canaanite/Phoenician religion as one of its main features.

Though, I'd prefer a Mesopotamian Pagan faith myself, in part due to there were still actual practitioners in upper Mesopotamia during the period. Also because I like the Sumero-Akkadian/Assyrian faith more.

 

[Almaron]

Ah, nice!

Hmm, are these the Harranians? Or was there another county that should have a pagan faith? TBH I just suggested a single Semitic faith because I figured it'd be easier to implement than two or three separate ancient faiths that might not even get formed. Still, perhaps it could be one faith with several heresies corresponding with the various different faiths of the area...

 

[Silva]

Hmm, are these the Harranians? Or was there another county that should have a pagan faith?

Harran had a 'Sabian' presence until 1032, at which point the urban community around the Temple of Sīn/Suen (Nanna in Sumerian) was functionally destroyed with the temple. That being said, you still had a rural pagan presence centuries later, supposedly up to the 1700s in and around Mardin, which is fairly close to Harran.

 

[Metanetwork]

Harran had a 'Sabian' presence until 1032, at which point the urban community around the Temple of Sīn/Suen (Nanna in Sumerian) was functionally destroyed with the temple. That being said, you still had a rural pagan presence centuries later, supposedly up to the 1700s in and around Mardin, which is fairly close to Harran.

The people of Harran took the name Sabian (from the Quran) for their moon-worship in the reign of al-Ma'mun, but their religion should be named Chaldean/Kaldan paganism. It's generally agreed that the Quran was referring to mandaeans (disciples of John the baptist).

The temple of Harran (destroyed in 1032) was the last temple of Sin/Suen, but they had another one at Ur which could be a holy site (not sure which province that is). The faith could have the astrology, haruspicy and pyramids features by default.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

Nanna in italian is what we say to our children when they need to sleep
Always nice to see people supporting this addition in Mesopotamia!

I think creating an Aramaic culture group is the way to go. Though tempting, it's really not appropriate to use Assyrians for Syriacs.

On another thread someone was also discussing changes to the region, maybe both things could be accomplished, but with one effort!

 

[Wixelt]

Actually I think Iraqi Arabic should also be made its own culture.

 

[Almaron]

I think creating an Aramaic culture group is the way to go. Though tempting, it's really not appropriate to use Assyrians for Syriacs.

On another thread someone was also discussing changes to the region, maybe both things could be accomplished, but with one effort!

Yeah, I'm fairly keen on the Aramaic culture being added - more interesting, after all - and we've got that awesome list of names from Rags17, so it would indeed be super easy to implement this. Which was the other thread you were mentioning?

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

It's titled kingdom of Damascus,on hiw to better the land with some interesting changes, both more historical and better for the game.

Edit: wait a second, it was you the whole time!

 

[Almaron]

Yeah, I wondered if the other thread was mine...

 

[Silva]

The people of Harran took the name Sabian (from the Quran) for their moon-worship in the reign of al-Ma'mun, but their religion should be named Chaldean/Kaldan paganism. It's generally agreed that the Quran was referring to mandaeans (disciples of John the baptist).

The temple of Harran (destroyed in 1032) was the last temple of Sin/Suen, but they had another one at Ur which could be a holy site (not sure which province that is). The faith could have the astrology, haruspicy and pyramids features by default.

If we're talking about holy sites, there are a few different iconic sites that can be chosen from.

• Ur: Location of the famous Ziggurat of Ur, which contained one of Nanna's (Sin/Suen in the Akkadian/Babylonian and Assyrian traditions) principle shrines, and was dedicated to the moon god in general. Also housed a temple to Inanna/Ishtar.

• Uruk: Housed the Eanna Temple, which was sacred both to the divine patriarch and sky god Anu, and the goddess of love and war (and many, many, many other things) Inanna/Ishtar. Also associated with Dumuzid (who was thought to be one of its early kings) and famously Gilgamesh (who became a minister in the Underworld upon death and was invoked in rites meant to banish spirits and ward off witches).

• Nippur: Host to the greatest of Enlil's shrines, and thought to confer kingship/legitimacy upon any ruler who held it within their dominion.

• Babylon: The city and primary cult center of Marduk. Also host to important temples dedicated to Ea/Enki, Anu, Ishtar, Nabu, etc.

• Ashur: The city of Ashur/Aššur. Housed temples to Aššur, Anu, Adad, Ishtar, Sin, Shamash, and Nabu.

• Nineveh: Capital of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, prominent cult-center to Ishtar for millennia, and home to temple dedicated to Sin, Ashur, Nergal, Shamash, Ninurta, Tammuz, Nisroch, and Nabu.

• Harran: Home to one of the two most prominent temples to Nanna/Sin/Suen, and the site of the last prominent urban community of Mesopotamian polytheists/pagans.

And, honestly, a lot more. But getting down to the practical matter of 'where would they be on the map?' simplifies things a bit. Ur and Uruk are likely both within the limits of the current county/province of Al Amarah, though one could make an argument Ur might be in Kufa. Nippur and Babylon also lie within the province/county of Al Amarah. So I feel rather comfrtable saying Al Amarah should be a holy site.

Ashur is likely in Dier, or the absolute southern tip of the county/province of Mosul. Meanwhile, Nineveh is almost certainly in Mosul given that, unlike in the current map which has it in the desert of Sippar, Nineveh was on the Tigris. So overall, I'd say either Mosul or Deir would be a good spot for another holy site.

Naturally, as the site of the most prominent community of Mesopotamian pagans in the period and their last known temple, Harran would also be a good spot for a holy site and is located in the county/province of Edessa.

For sites farther afield, you can justify pretty much any county along the Zargos Mountains or in modern Lebanon as being the site of the mythical Cedar Forest, a domain of the gods, as being a holy site. You also have Tayma, which was the city the last king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, Nabonidus, retired to so as to worship Sin/Suen in a city he thought sacred to the god. I imagine a religion that resurges to Harran might find that significant...and it forces a Mesopotamian/Chaldean pagan ruler to conquer the Levant and the duchy of Arabia if they want to have all their holy sites.

 

[Almaron]

While I like this, my only concern is that these sites are VERY close to each other; it wouldn't be hard for a player to gobble up a majority of these sites and reform the religion almost immediately. Would it be possible to shift a few of them further outwards, like to Mecca (symbolising how the area was once a pagan shrine, that some of the Pre-Islamic Arabians did worship several foreign gods from this area, and also highlighting that they've forced out the religion that was dominant in the area at the game start)?

I should note that all of those locations but Ur are in the game already as baronies, although because the provinces have been shifted around a lot while the baronies haven't been updated to reflect this, they're all over the place. Nineveh's in Sinjar province, Babylon's in Baghdad province, Harran's in Edessa province, and Uruk, Nippur and Ashur (under the name Qalat Sjergat) are all in Sus province (it used to be Tigris province, but it got reworked). If we shift Sus/Tigris back to the right spot and shift Assur to Sinjar, we'll have two holy sites right next to each other (Tigris and Baghdad) and then two more only a few provinces apart (two between Baghdad and Sinjar, and one between Sinjar and Edessa).

I'd personally recommend axing Babylon and just having three sites in the Mesopotamia region overall, then one in Mecca, and one more...perhaps in Lebanon as the Cedar Forest, as you said?

 

[Silva]

While I like this, my only concern is that these sites are VERY close to each other; it wouldn't be hard for a player to gobble up a majority of these sites and reform the religion almost immediately. Would it be possible to shift a few of them further outwards, like to Mecca (symbolising how the area was once a pagan shrine, that some of the Pre-Islamic Arabians did worship several foreign gods from this area, and also highlighting that they've forced out the religion that was dominant in the area at the game start)?

I mean, I don't think they're that close together. Assuming you use Harran (Edessa), Nineveh (Mosul, because Nineveh is east of the Tigris and north of the city of Mosul, which means it can't be in Sinjar), Babylon/Nippur/Uruk/Ur (Al Amarah), Baalbek (Because Adad was important in Mesopotamia too) and Tayma, they seem about as far as the Romuva holy sites. And would still require anyone going that angle to deal with pretty much every Islamic polity in the region dog-piling them on regular.

Spoiler: Provinces/Counties in Question in Red

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

I mean, I don't think they're that close together. Assuming you use Harran (Edessa), Nineveh (Mosul, because Nineveh is east of the Tigris and north of the city of Mosul, which means it can't be in Sinjar), Babylon/Nippur/Uruk/Ur (Al Amarah), Baalbek (Because Adad was important in Mesopotamia too) and Tayma, they seem about as far as the Romuva holy sites. And would still require anyone going that angle to deal with pretty much every Islamic polity in the region dog-piling them on regular.

Spoiler: Provinces/Counties in Question in Red

View attachment 516971

I'd agree that they are not that close. If you consider that for hellenism they are all a really short boat ride away this ones have real distance between them.

We could have one like heliopolis for zun, which is there just for the giggles.

I love talking about this :3
Would be cool to have a "roman renaissance" styled decision for Akkadian culture. Go crazier and bring back sumerian :Q

Am i pushing it? I think i am. If not here though.... I'm just a boy with a dream