Practical questions

[21oliver]

For all you knowledgeable practical guys...

I was wondering if anyone had recording any practical data, essentially on how much it takes to seriously impact your production time. For example one aircraft at 20 IC, how many to bring it to 17 or 15? sometimes you see the practicals jump other times its just a slight bit, almost not worth it.

I also was wondering what the formula was you guys use in determining cost savings with practicals. For example in my games as Germany where I build a 300 IC Base. Initially the are set to finish around Nov 26th or so, then i add a bunch of airbases to the top of the queue, which i believe finish twice before the IC, in the end the first run of IC finishes around a month early. Im wondering the cost i spent in airbases as opposed to what i saved by producing the IC early...

:blink:

 

[Pro_Consul]

Practical gain scales with IC expenditure. In other words, the more you spend building something, the more practical you get for completing it. Building a single reserve division under 1 year draft law will net only a fraction of the practical you would get from building the same division as regulars.

 

[21oliver]

I understand the common sense knowledge of it, i was wondering if anyone had recorded data. For example, i built 10 Inf divisions and they cost me 5 IC each, after the 10 completed they cost me 4 each.... or i built 20 IC and 10 airbases and the 10 airbases saved me X amount of IC on my IC building etc...

 

[Secret Master]

Is this the tooltip you are looking for?

 

[21oliver]

Nah i m aware of all that, i was just wondering about computing "savings"

As we had a few discussions for example you mentioned you didnt normally cook practicals of IC by say making airbases. Im wondering for example what is it costing me in IC by building the airbases, and if im actually saving IC and how much by doing so? Next time i do a 300 Base game, ill detail each step and maybe with some help i can figure out the savings.

 

[21oliver]

Here is some data from a current game, maybe any of you who are good at the formula can come up with some data if your so inclined....

Jan 1, 1936 IC 2/144/216
Set on Production, initially 146.81 allocated

I build ICx56 and Airbasesx14, the Airbases are placed in front of the IC.
Jan 1 data;

Airbases cost 4.20 IC finish date April 5 1936
IC cost 5.25 finish date Jan 19 1937

On Jan 2 I fire the Rhineland decision, and enact Mixed Industry.
Upon doing so;

Airbases cost 3.60 IC finish date Mar 23 1936
IC x16 cost 4.50 IC finish date Nov 25 1936
IC x1 (76%) finish date Mar 7 1937
(note 17 of my 56 IC were actually IN production, the rest were queued)

Mar 23 my airbases complete. Some of them had multiple airbases queued. The new Airbases cost is 3.32 IC.
The impact on my IC;

IC x16 cost 4.15 IC finish date Oct 31
IC x2 finish date Nov 1
IC x1 finish date Nov 2
IC x3 finish date Nov 3
IC x1 (67%) finish date Mar 6 1937

What i want to determine is what am i saving by building the airbases. I can use them, but don't need them per se. I generally raise all airbases in Germany to 5, and add 3 additional. Its habit now, but i am interested in reading the data.

 

[21oliver]

Im going to add one more round and thats it....

On Jun 5th 7 airbases completed at a cost of 3.32 IC per
The impact on my IC;

IC x16 cost 4.12 IC finish date Oct 29
IC x2 finish date Oct 30
IC x1 finish date Oct 31
IC x3 finish date Nov 1
IC x1 finish date Nov 11
IC x1 finish date Dec 20
IC x6 finish date Jan 17 1937
IC x1 (19%) finish date Aug 7 1940

My construction practicals were;
Jan 2 after Mixed Ind 5%
After first run of airbases Mar 23rd 6.5%
After second run of airbases Jun 5th 7%

 

[Pelican Sam]

Does this help you at all?

 

[21oliver]

Ive seen that. Its just some guys are good at computing the numbers and was wondering what the trade off was in my above case or something similar, in actual numbers not theory. Ty though

 

[Less]

Here is some data from a current game, maybe any of you who are good at the formula can come up with some data if your so inclined....

Jan 1, 1936 IC 2/144/216
Set on Production, initially 146.81 allocated

I build ICx56 and Airbasesx14, the Airbases are placed in front of the IC.
Jan 1 data;

Airbases cost 4.20 IC finish date April 5 1936
IC cost 5.25 finish date Jan 19 1937

On Jan 2 I fire the Rhineland decision, and enact Mixed Industry.
Upon doing so;

Airbases cost 3.60 IC finish date Mar 23 1936
IC x16 cost 4.50 IC finish date Nov 25 1936
IC x1 (76%) finish date Mar 7 1937
(note 17 of my 56 IC were actually IN production, the rest were queued)

Mar 23 my airbases complete. Some of them had multiple airbases queued. The new Airbases cost is 3.32 IC.
The impact on my IC;

IC x16 cost 4.15 IC finish date Oct 31
IC x2 finish date Nov 1
IC x1 finish date Nov 2
IC x3 finish date Nov 3
IC x1 (67%) finish date Mar 6 1937

What i want to determine is what am i saving by building the airbases. I can use them, but don't need them per se. I generally raise all airbases in Germany to 5, and add 3 additional. Its habit now, but i am interested in reading the data.

Based on this, your airbases cost you 3.6 * 82 days * 14 bases = ~4132 IC days
Normally, your IC would cost you 4.5 * 324 days = ~1458 IC days each
With your discount, it costs you (4.50 * 82) + (4.15 * 218) = ~1273 IC days

Given this, you saved about 185 IC days on each IC you built by building the airbases. Given that you are building ~22.5 IC it looks like you are barely breaking even on a straight how much you get vs. how much you spend. You will have slightly higher practical for your next run, but the 2nd order effects should drop off fairly quickly. You'll also get your IC about a month earlier, which lets it pay off slightly faster. I highly doubt that more airbases after the first run are helping you at all, definitely cancel those.

One thing I will add is that infrastructure is 4x as good at raising construction practical as airbases and other buildings. You should definitely be building it over airbases if you are purely interested in speeding your IC-whoring. Getting the same amount of practical that your airbases gave you would only require ~1k of IC-days in infrastructure investment instead of ~4k of airbases, leaving you well over 3k in the green.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

Ive seen that. Its just some guys are good at computing the numbers and was wondering what the trade off was in my above case or something similar, in actual numbers not theory. Ty though

Dear Oliver,

The basecost for IC is 360 days time 5 IC = 1800 IC days.

With the 15% penalty from CGO and the 10% bonus from technology you get a cost of 1800 * 1,05*1,05 = 1985 IC days

Changing to MI instead removes the 15% penalty and changes the total cost of your factories to 1800*0,9*0,9 = 1458 IC days

The first batch of Airfields increase your practicals. Your practicals decrease the time and cost by a further 7% (4,15/5 = 0,83). The price of a factory is now 1800*0,83*0,83 = 1240 IC days.

You build 21 factories (these are the factories for which the early change in practical have any relevance) initially meaning you IC days savings (I am ignoring your second round of airfields) run up to 21 * (1458 - 1240) = 4578 IC days. On top of that you get the benefit of the extra IC from the new factories about a month early.

I hope this is the math you had in mind.

 

[21oliver]

Thx for the info. The airbases in of themselves arent useless, i dont need them, at least to such a level per se. Not sure as Germany initially if i can even build infra as they are mostly green i believe. I use infra alot as other nations in this regard, i didnt realize the cost factor however. Thx a bunch.

Edit. Just saw your post Swen...As clear and concise a response as i could have asked for. Thank you very much.

Im not feeling well and just woke up 3am, my head was spinning earlier and just couldnt sit down an wrap my head around the numbers tonight. Didnt mean to come across lazy. Thank you all for your help again.

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

We aim to serve

 

[21oliver]

On a platter? lol

 

[Sweynforkbeard]

On a platter? lol

Your head he he

 

[21oliver]

 

[Kovax]

If you're going to need the airbases anyway, I'd definitely upgrade or build them at the start to boost your Construction Practical level. Besides boosting the levels of two or three along the French border, I like build a L3 airbase in Leipzig for some unfathomable reason.....

GER can upgrade a bit of infrastructure in the upper corner adjacent to Danzig and vicinity, as well as a couple of provinces tucked into that lower CZE-POL corner. The upper ones may serve some throughput purpose later, upgrading the lower ones would be purely a Practical-raising gimmick.

 

[Kagernaut]

Is this the tooltip you are looking for?

For the love of all things holy....how did you get 71%???

Having like, 20 practical yields what, 39%? Wow dude.

 

[21oliver]

He is not the Master for nothing....

Kovax - Yeah most of my airbases are for practical purposes except for 3 on major IC locations that need them... I usually bring them all up to 5, but then again its because im building massive IC. I just played a test game whereby i built no IC, and the only airbases i built were level 2's in those 3 locations in need. I did peak at the Infra situation, but only after the Anschluss and Munich, too late to really do me much good. Anway yep only the corners had any room, not likely enough for my purposes, the Airbases work well. For the Soviets i do build alot of infra to cook practicals and for supply issues.

 

[pocho.hr]

For the love of all things holy....how did you get 71%???

Having like, 20 practical yields what, 39%? Wow dude.

his Heavy Aircraft practical is almost 200 if i get this correctly.


An approximate fit would be:
Linear regime (below 5 Practical): +10% time and IC per point below 5.
Square root regime (above 5 Practical): Time and IC reduction of 5% * sqrt(Practical - 5).