Powers without land -A suggestion

[unmerged(30261)]

I am going to present an idea that I've been thinking about for a while. The idea is simply to introduce different powers that don't own land (not nations) on the same terms as nations. Those can be broke down to certain categories:

1. trade organizations and companies (hanseatic leage, ostindiska kompaniet)
2. religious institutions (the pope, religious orders)
3. Courts of annexed nations
4. Pirates
5. Mercenaries
6. Revolters

The idea is to implement them as diplomatic, economic and military entities, thus enableing you to for example negotiate a deal with pirates to act as privateers (get rid of that pirate and let him pester your enemies), or installing a suitable court when you create a vasall state (to gain credibility and peoples support (reducing revoltrisk).

These powers should be represented in the diplomatic screen, are located in a friendly province (and can move), can own armies/navies (in friendly territory), and can own money, and act on the trade market.

The benefits from this are many:
1. These powers, that IRL often where more powerfull, influencial and rich than many countries (hanseatic league, pope par example), may now be active, and also negotiated with and dealt with by other means.

2. It become more difficult to use the military annexation solution to all problems as there is no land to annex and the HQ of these organization can move.

3. The courts of annexed nations can still play a (though somewhat limited) role, and pester the life of the new owner (allways good to discourage annexations).

4. Most of these organizations will dislike aggresive nations (traders want peace), and may leave leave your country if you are too triggerhappy, thus encouraging peacefull solutions.

These powers can all conquer or be granted land and become a nation (see: Foundation of Paraguay, or the Vatican, or Belgian Congo (more Kings own land than the belgian states).

It would be interesting to be able to play as pirate or an order of monks and try to gain own territory to start a country.

I don't think this idea would be so difficult to implement, as you can use the same format as for countries, with some limitations and some other options, but I think it would be easier not having to implement these forces as events. Possibilities are endless...

Think of playing a big trading company and join an ousted royal court in marrige, to gain credibility to buy of a province, or get one from a peacedeal by a friendly nation you helped with money or mercenaries during a war!

What about that?
/Lasse

 

[alvaro]

I love it.

 

[Falstaff]

These powers should be represented in the diplomatic screen, are located in a friendly province (and can move), can own armies/navies (in friendly territory)

What are friendly provinces? Provinces of nations friendly to them? Wouldn't it annoy the player who's manpower you take?

 

[unmerged(54468)]

I like your idea, but I see a couple hitches. While, the court, religious, and trader organizations I think are fine, it seems to me that pirates, mercenaries, and rebels, who did not act in concert with each other for the most part might be better handled with some mechanism similar to the leader thing that was shown in today's diary.

 

[Tunch Khan]

There are also small Priest run monastery states, like Zeta; or republics like Ragusa; or states like the Duchy of the Archipelago; Duchy of Athens; wandering Cossacks; or the forgotten Beydom of Emirlu who don't have much land or power, and are usually vassals to larger neighbors, yet they still survived for some period.

 

[unmerged(30261)]

What are friendly provinces? Provinces of nations friendly to them? Wouldn't it annoy the player who's manpower you take?

With Friendly provinces I mean as you suggested, provinces in nations that you have good relations with. You have to ask them first via an diplomatic option.

Of course you can not recruit conscripts in the province you are based, you have to hire mercenaries.

/Lasse

 

[OLDTIMER]

Hi,

practically all the organisations/phenomenons mentioned here had a territorial base:

- Papal States, free cities as Hansa members, Tortuga was an independent pirate state for quite some time in all but name. Condottieri became princes and so on.

That should give the possibility of easy implementation of Pirates as a playable nation at least. Hansa, I don`t know, in RL they even waged wars, but were a mix of independent and non-independent entities.

The real interesting thing would be inclusion of "courts in exile" like Stuarts in France. This should give them and their hosts some uniqe possibilities, at a price.

Excellent flavour features, but how much resources would it need at Paradox?
Too much considering other needs I think, like a challenging AI, to name one.

Regards, Oldtimer

 

[unmerged(54468)]

But the island of Tortuga did not have soverignty over the pirates of the Caribbean (that I am aware of ), and definiately over Mediterranian, Indian, and Pacific pirates, making the faction still function much like rebels (who established independent states, but which did not have autority over other rebel groups).

 

[unmerged(30261)]

Hi,

practically all the organisations/phenomenons mentioned here had a territorial base:

- Papal States, free cities as Hansa members, Tortuga was an independent pirate state for quite some time in all but name. Condottieri became princes and so on.

That should give the possibility of easy implementation of Pirates as a playable nation at least. Hansa, I don`t know, in RL they even waged wars, but were a mix of independent and non-independent entities.

The real interesting thing would be inclusion of "courts in exile" like Stuarts in France. This should give them and their hosts some uniqe possibilities, at a price.

Excellent flavour features, but how much resources would it need at Paradox?
Too much considering other needs I think, like a challenging AI, to name one.

Regards, Oldtimer

Well, if these organizations waged war or not is not an important issue for me. The central point is the possibility to act diplomatically and by economic means. And for the military, there is really nothing stopping them from having an army as the armies during large parts of this period were hired proffesionals. Look at the swedish army during the 30-year war for example.

As for your statement that most of these organizations had a territorial base I don't agree. Tortuga was a city and as such a base for Pirates, but that's just a city not a province and they often shifted bases when driven away. Tradeorganizations and companies didn't have their own territory. Hansa didn't, although they were very influencial where they acted, and that's my main point for this proposal.

As for the AI I believe this approach will require less events to cover important issues where these powers are involved as their presence is allready implmented. I don't think the format for them have to differ that much from the format of nations so this implementation sould be reasonably easy. Just a few new diplomatic, and maybe economic options, and some limitations.

Thanks for your thoughts!
/Lasse

ps. Maybe I missunderstood your points regarding Hansa, in that case I apologize for irrelevant argumentation.

 

[SirGrotius]

Think outside the box!

I support this suggestion. I know from personal experience, and I've seen others take this same stand, that there is something terribly romantic about taking a one-province nation (e.g., The Knights, or a little larger, Savoy) and turning them into a power, even regionally suffices.

I can imagine there being some significant programming hurdles to climb first, but I think this would really make the game original. As a first step, to make their implementation more manageable, we can keep them as NPCs, so a coding system is extent, but for an expansion pack I'd sure like to play as Corsairs or some rich Catholic island, somewhere.

 

[OLDTIMER]

But the island of Tortuga did not have soverignty over the pirates of the Caribbean (that I am aware of ), and definiately over Mediterranian, Indian, and Pacific pirates, making the faction still function much like rebels (who established independent states, but which did not have autority over other rebel groups).

Hi,

right, but they had a sovereign territory. It is possible that a great leader(H Morgan for one) could exert control over a considerable fleet. Sure, the average pirate was fiercely independent... But a wise pirate certainly appreciated a safe haven with forts, shipyards and traders. Maybe so much that he would give up some of his freedom for access to such amenities.

After all the pirate republic on Madagascar almost made it...

And in the Med... The Barbaresqe states were nothing but pirate states. Best example of really working pirate nations, IMO. Actually, as they already exist, maybe they should have a set of unique options and events mirroring their nature. So you could play a navalised, inventive(for a period) moslem nation.

Regards, Oldtimer

 

[Charle_88]

Love it. Would really enhance the game.

My only objection being the pope. The papal states did have territory, after all.

 

[vertinox]

Love it. Would really enhance the game.

My only objection being the pope. The papal states did have territory, after all.

And still do. Vatican city is still considered its own state.

 

[Charle_88]

And still do. Vatican city is still considered its own state.

Yes, it is quite the territory. Surely of imperial sizes.

 

[unmerged(54468)]

And if I am not mistaken, even Vatican City itslef acts more like a supernational (Supra-? Super-Duper-?) entity than an actual state. Like how the UN and EU have nominal territory,but are not states... yet

 

[alvaro]

At least certain types of goverments should have the chance to create trade companies like the dutch VOC. England had hers in India and Sweden as well more examples might be found.
It could be an interesting new concept.

 

[Registered]

At least certain types of goverments should have the chance to create trade companies like the dutch VOC. England had hers in India and Sweden as well more examples might be found.
It could be an interesting new concept.

Don't thikn it should be tied to system of government. Many countries, with very diverse governments, tried their hand at Oriental trading companies. For example, Austria, France, Prussia (utter failure), Denmark, Portugal.
Though i suppose tying it to the national ideas would make sense.

 

[Gebhard Blucher]

Don't thikn it should be tied to system of government. Many countries, with very diverse governments, tried their hand at Oriental trading companies. For example, Austria, France, Prussia (utter failure), Denmark, Portugal.
Though i suppose tying it to the national ideas would make sense.

I'd like to see "Euopean Trade Company" too for my civilized Japan with its imperialistic expansion in the barbaric west.

 

[alvaro]

Don't thikn it should be tied to system of government. Many countries, with very diverse governments, tried their hand at Oriental trading companies. For example, Austria, France, Prussia (utter failure), Denmark, Portugal.
Though i suppose tying it to the national ideas would make sense.

yeah, I say "government" because I have not clear how is it exactly going to work. but yeah, it's what you say what I mean.

 

[unmerged(30261)]

Hi,

right, but they had a sovereign territory. It is possible that a great leader(H Morgan for one) could exert control over a considerable fleet. Sure, the average pirate was fiercely independent... But a wise pirate certainly appreciated a safe haven with forts, shipyards and traders. Maybe so much that he would give up some of his freedom for access to such amenities.

After all the pirate republic on Madagascar almost made it...

And in the Med... The Barbaresqe states were nothing but pirate states. Best example of really working pirate nations, IMO. Actually, as they already exist, maybe they should have a set of unique options and events mirroring their nature. So you could play a navalised, inventive(for a period) moslem nation.

Regards, Oldtimer

I simply don't agree that sovereign territory is a prequisite for power, not more back then than today when we have companies on the top ten list of economic powers. General electric has a bigger economy and thus more power than many nations. Back then, in the timeframe of the game, when maybe other values than money where considered important, certain NGO:s where definately more powerful than many poor states and so deserve a place, maybe playable, in the game.

As for the implementation, they might require other channels to wield their power through, maybe by developing the diplomatic options, and that's a thing that even states could benefit from.

Regards
/Lasse