TonyJones

Sergeant
37 Badges
Oct 2, 2019
79
136
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Yes the committee is not Bulgarian, because it also has Aromanians in it like Mitre Vlahot, Jews like Rafael Kamhi and others. The Aromanians were particularly noticeable. In the early days there were also some Greeks in the organisation, although their number quickly diminished seeing as they were more interested in assimilating the local Bulgarians. BMORK, TMORO, VMORO and VMRO were all initially non purely Bulgarian organisations because they initially focused on the liberation of the whole enslaved populace left in the European lands of the Ottoman Empire. Only after the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising in 1903 did the organisations shift towards a purely Bulgarian character with some having autonomist ideas and others wanting the direct annexation of these lands depending on their views of what would help the Bulgarians there better.

Tell me, why did Gotse Delchev tour Thrace and Adrianople to inspect the local organisations in the years prior to the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising? If he was a Macedonian fighting for Macedonia why would he care to inspect revolutionary committees all the way up to the Black sea? Unless you claim the people there were also Macedonians... but more likely you had no idea of any of this. Why did he chair the Plovdiv congress of the Adrianople revolutionary district in 1902???

Known it's been a while, but I remember this existed and have now decided to continue, despite the other conversations that have started around it. ;)

Yeah there was Aromanians and other peoples in the organisation.
It didn't have a purely Bulgarian character after Illinden, you even mention the autonomists ideas here yeah. There were pro-Bulgarian branches, as well as those for an independent Macedonia.

VMORO wanted to liberate Macedonia and Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace because they were Christians. But it was like a common enemy kind of thing, not because they were all Bulgarians or something. VMRO originally planned to only fight for Macedonia's liberation, but decided to liberate Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace as well.
Hristo Tatarchev said "Odrin was not included in our program from the beginning. All our attention was then focused on Macedonia; but later the idea began to strengthen in us, so that our organization included the Edirne region"
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
H

Hospodar

Guest
Yeah I would love to have a goal as Romania to set up an Aromanian state as a subject, would throw a wrench in the classic Greek-Turkish rivalry! : P
"Terra Vlachorum", the 1919 request for the Pindus Principate at the Paris Peace Conference:
Idea_for_autonomous_Pind_after_ww1.jpg


 
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.891
2.843
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Genuine question: Why would Greeks and Serbs flee to Russia when they have independent culturally similar nations nearby?

And to @Al-Khalidi to not clutter Caucasian thread:

In 1836 independence of Serbia was still under question. While an autonomy and with quite a few rights, it was still under threat of full annexation or being military trampled by Ottomans at least until 1878-1879.

As for Greece... well, it could be said that a similar reason applies. Although in their case a major factor was that 1836 Greece, in those borders, was small and unable to host all refugees. In fact, security of Greece was only guaranteed by Great Powers defacto... which is not something to be taken for granted.

I would say that refugee streams in a possible event of triumph of Ottoman Empire AND using bashi-bazouks to terrorize locals into submission could be split among a few nations, especially heavily dependent on the willingness of Russian Empire to host them.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

vikinglord

Sergeant
59 Badges
Jul 18, 2012
66
56
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Known it's been a while, but I remember this existed and have now decided to continue, despite the other conversations that have started around it. ;)

Yeah there was Aromanians and other peoples in the organisation.
It didn't have a purely Bulgarian character after Illinden, you even mention the autonomists ideas here yeah. There were pro-Bulgarian branches, as well as those for an independent Macedonia.

VMORO wanted to liberate Macedonia and Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace because they were Christians. But it was like a common enemy kind of thing, not because they were all Bulgarians or something. VMRO originally planned to only fight for Macedonia's liberation, but decided to liberate Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace as well.
Hristo Tatarchev said "Odrin was not included in our program from the beginning. All our attention was then focused on Macedonia; but later the idea began to strengthen in us, so that our organization included the Edirne region"
Ah yes, the same Tatarchev that was part of the Bulgarian Secret Central Revolutionary Committee. I am sure the quote you have of him has everything to do with your implications that the organisation aimed to liberate broadly Christians and not that it wanted to liberate Bulgarians. Funny how VMRO, VMORO, BMORK, TMORO, BTCRK had nearly the same people within them and never ventured to liberate Kosovo, or Thessaly, or Cyprus or the Aegean Islands. Quite strange for an organisation supposedly focused on the liberation of Christians only.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Valladolid

Corporal
44 Badges
Sep 26, 2013
49
253
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Speaking of greece, could we get the 1862 Head of state referendum and all the wild possibilities that could have come from that? :D
This little bit of history cracked me up reading the referendum results. "A King". Wow how specific. I'm surprised no one thought of voting for a Habsburg though. That surely would have raised Greece's prestige in the world.

Hopefully there will be a way in-game for Greece (and other local players) to court a foreign power to help it realize its territorial ambitions.
 

TonyJones

Sergeant
37 Badges
Oct 2, 2019
79
136
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Ah yes, the same Tatarchev that was part of the Bulgarian Secret Central Revolutionary Committee. I am sure the quote you have of him has everything to do with your implications that the organisation aimed to liberate broadly Christians and not that it wanted to liberate Bulgarians. Funny how VMRO, VMORO, BMORK, TMORO, BTCRK had nearly the same people within them and never ventured to liberate Kosovo, or Thessaly, or Cyprus or the Aegean Islands. Quite strange for an organisation supposedly focused on the liberation of Christians only.
Mate, he says it there, they want to liberate Macedonia for Macedonia, and for one reason or another they tried to liberate Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace as well, due to their Christian population there. It probably has to do with how most of the population there were both apart of the Bulgarian Exarchate, which is why the organisation was called Bulgarian by the why. And since Kosovo, Thessaly etc were mostly not Bulgarian religiously, they decided not to liberate it I guess. I mean it says originally they only wanted Macedonia anyway, and most of the time they did focus there anyway, especially later on, with their just being an Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace branch.
 
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

vikinglord

Sergeant
59 Badges
Jul 18, 2012
66
56
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Mate, he says it there, they want to liberate Macedonia for Macedonia, and for one reason or another they tried to liberate Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace as well, due to their Christian population there. It probably has to do with how most of the population there were both apart of the Bulgarian Exarchate, which is why the organisation was called Bulgarian by the why. And since Kosovo, Thessaly etc were mostly not Bulgarian religiously, they decided not to liberate it I guess. I mean it says originally they only wanted Macedonia anyway, and most of the time they did focus there anyway, especially later on, with their just being an Odrin/Adrianople/Thrace branch.
Right, so again, you are implying an ethnic meaning to his words, and not purely an organisational one. Where does he say that the reason for adding Odrin was that they were simply Christians?

This is the same guy that was part of Bulgarian Secret Central Revolutionary Committee. Since you fail to address it, I will. It was one of the organisations responsible for the Union of Bulgaria and Eastern Rumelia. Were there also Macedonians there?
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

TonyJones

Sergeant
37 Badges
Oct 2, 2019
79
136
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Right, so again, you are implying an ethnic meaning to his words, and not purely an organisational one. Where does he say that the reason for adding Odrin was that they were simply Christians?

This is the same guy that was part of Bulgarian Secret Central Revolutionary Committee. Since you fail to address it, I will. It was one of the organisations responsible for the Union of Bulgaria and Eastern Rumelia. Were there also Macedonians there?
Tatarchev did have quite pro-Bulgarian Church views, and quite Bulgarian stance overall. He even wanted unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria, but just didn't think it was possible so advocated for an independent Macedonia. However, not all VMRO was the case, including other founders, look back at what I've posted before, Nikola Karev said Macedonians are their own thing.

Anyway, Tatarchev said "All our attention was then focused on Macedonia; but later the idea began to strengthen in us, so that our organization included the Edirne region, where the fate of the Christian population, especially the Bulgarian, was no different from that of the Macedonian people and where the political, social and economic conditions were almost identical to those in Macedonia". You might say "Oh look he said Bulgarian", but then he'd want to liberate Muslim Bulgarians too no? He seems to be referring to religious Bulgarians here.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

vikinglord

Sergeant
59 Badges
Jul 18, 2012
66
56
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Tatarchev did have quite pro-Bulgarian Church views, and quite Bulgarian stance overall. He even wanted unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria, but just didn't think it was possible so advocated for an independent Macedonia. However, not all VMRO was the case, including other founders, look back at what I've posted before, Nikola Karev said Macedonians are their own thing.

Anyway, Tatarchev said "All our attention was then focused on Macedonia; but later the idea began to strengthen in us, so that our organization included the Edirne region, where the fate of the Christian population, especially the Bulgarian, was no different from that of the Macedonian people and where the political, social and economic conditions were almost identical to those in Macedonia". You might say "Oh look he said Bulgarian", but then he'd want to liberate Muslim Bulgarians too no? He seems to be referring to religious Bulgarians here.
Tatarchev was a Bulgarian. End of story. There is no such thing as a "pro-Bulgarian church nationality" or whatever Macedonist historians have come up to justify their claim that everyone and anyone born in a specific geographic area (that being Macedonia) has been a Macedonian since forever.

And yes, the conditions in Macedonia and Adrianople were similar. There were Orthodox Greeks, Orthodox Bulgarians, Muslim Bulgarians and Muslim Turks.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

TonyJones

Sergeant
37 Badges
Oct 2, 2019
79
136
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Tatarchev was a Bulgarian. End of story. There is no such thing as a "pro-Bulgarian church nationality" or whatever Macedonist historians have come up to justify their claim that everyone and anyone born in a specific geographic area (that being Macedonia) has been a Macedonian since forever.

And yes, the conditions in Macedonia and Adrianople were similar. There were Orthodox Greeks, Orthodox Bulgarians, Muslim Bulgarians and Muslim Turks.
Yeah, Tatarchev was pretty Bulgarian. Ok. But again, look back at what I sent before. Not all Macedonians were. There were ethnic Macedonians.

Macedonia and Adrianople both had Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, and Muslims, yes. But in Macedonia, Macedonians were under these religions, as there was no Macedonian Orthodox Church, though Macedonians advocated for one. There was also some who called themselves ethnically Greek, Bulgarian, and Turkish in Macedonia too as well. No all all Macedonia was Macedonian, but there was Macedonians.
 

JackAlNXT

Captain
28 Badges
Sep 12, 2016
408
268
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Knights of Honor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
Before this goes off the rails again, I just want to give some context to our non-Bulgaro-NorthMacedonian friends.

If you don't know, North Macedonia doesn't have a traditional historian community. To them, historians serve an entirely political purpose. Usually, the narrative is 'we have history dating back centuries, aren't we great?'

The methods used by them are similar to those of conspiracy theorist (flat-earthers, ancient aliens etc.) where they have already decided what their version of history is, then just simply work around the evidence presented to them. In this case, the narrative is that the Revolutionary movements in late 19th, early 20th century Macedonia were all led by ethnic Macedonians. There is a problem, however. Pretty much all of those revolutionaries have declared a Bulgarian identity and we have the documents to prove it. Of course, North Macedonian identity cannot allow any common history with Bulgaria so, what is the solution? The Bulgarian church, duh!

According to the North Macedonians, the Bulgarian church was so powerful in the Ottoman Empire that it even convinced underground revolutionaries to declare a Bulgarian identity in their own diaries!
 
  • 4
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

TonyJones

Sergeant
37 Badges
Oct 2, 2019
79
136
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
Before this goes off the rails again, I just want to give some context to our non-Bulgaro-NorthMacedonian friends.

If you don't know, North Macedonia doesn't have a traditional historian community. To them, historians serve an entirely political purpose. Usually, the narrative is 'we have history dating back centuries, aren't we great?'

The methods used by them are similar to those of conspiracy theorist (flat-earthers, ancient aliens etc.) where they have already decided what their version of history is, then just simply work around the evidence presented to them. In this case, the narrative is that the Revolutionary movements in late 19th, early 20th century Macedonia were all led by ethnic Macedonians. There is a problem, however. Pretty much all of those revolutionaries have declared a Bulgarian identity and we have the documents to prove it. Of course, North Macedonian identity cannot allow any common history with Bulgaria so, what is the solution? The Bulgarian church, duh!

According to the North Macedonians, the Bulgarian church was so powerful in the Ottoman Empire that it even convinced underground revolutionaries to declare a Bulgarian identity in their own diaries!
1628684276382.png

1628684329467.png


"Macedonians! Remember the world's winner, the great glory of Macedonia, the great Alexander of Macedon; Remember for the brave King Samoil, the Macedonian giant, for the marvelous Marko Kral, the Slavic glory, that Macedonian blood flowed through them; those of heavenly heights watch and bless our initiated work. To show worthy descendants of their descendants: to preserve their glorious names and to amaze the world with our courage, dexterity and self-sacrifice; to cut off from us the shameful yoke that suffocates us for five centuries." - Anastas Jankov, VMRO member (1902) Reform Newspaper



"Pretty much all of those revolutionaries have declared a Bulgarian identity" Yep, seems Bulgarian here eh?

"The methods used by them are similar to those of conspiracy theorist" Yeah, quoting the people themselves, it's historical revisionism!
 

Attachments

  • 1628679002986.png
    1628679002986.png
    440,3 KB · Views: 0
  • 1
Reactions:

fr-rein

Bearded
35 Badges
Dec 29, 2014
1.891
2.843
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
Hmm... Does Slovenia have any grand visions of centuries-old history? There might actually be one such Slavic country :D

I think they do, especially when you talk about Carinthia and Istria.

Key difference is that they are pretty ok with borders, recognised as nation, separate culture and language, have full peace with Italy and Austria and the few disputes with Croatia are rather minor.

Which is very uncommon for Slavic countries ;)

But returning to nationalism: there is a reason why historians tend to claim as much as possible and politicians endorse it. And that is the fact that it is far easier to concede that, in Macedonian context, Macedonians are not straight sons of the Alexander the Great than to ask Bulgarians to be recognized as own ethnos. Because in the atmosphere of the national rivalry nations try to press each other as much as possible to not fall under pressure.

Imo, I said before that most rational idea is growing Macedonia out of Western Bulgarian nationalism and, accordingly, make difference between Eastern and Western Bulgarian that encompasses all things:
- dominance of Eastern Bulgarian
- allows Macedonian base itself on Western Bulgarian to mark difference and coincide with areas spoken with Macedonian language (and claimed ones that coincide with Western Bulgarian dialect)
- have failure by Bulgaria to annex Macedonia maje local nationalist start campaigning for the Macedonia, especially under more autonomous rule by metropoly

This said, I do wonder about how detailed national maps will be.

They, at least used to, claim to be full blooded Veneti I believe, though I don't think the vast majority do now.

Those are derived from border issues and former ethnic tensions.