fr-rein

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Ukrainian was split?

My point exactly about issues of local and identity divisions not always even known :D

But as you can see, it is exactly because of it that we may not need to make separate cultures/subcultures for all cases. Especially if we may have better ways to represent it gameplay-wise.
 

TonyJones

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My point exactly about issues of local and identity divisions not always even known :D

But as you can see, it is exactly because of it that we may not need to make separate cultures/subcultures for all cases. Especially if we may have better ways to represent it gameplay-wise.
Well I mean I don't think it should be more based on gameplay, rather more on historical accuracy that works with the gameplay. Like as Macedonian was an actual seperate culture from Bulgarian, there is no real reason for it to be represented otherwise in game. Also I have read stuff about how the "Romanian" identity was not fully formed before unification and that Wallachians, Moldovans, Transylvanians, and Dobrujans all existed as seperate things, at least by some of the population, though I have not done much research into it myself. So I think personally if a culture did exist as its own thing, there's no reason to put them together. There can be some feature to make them unify in certain circumstances though.
 
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Shogun96

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Having several relatives being descendants of the Istrian exodus, I'm hoping for a proper representation of Italian minorities (And majorities) in Istria and Dalmatia. Especially Istria, as its main cities were all majority Italian up until 1945.
 
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Kaspar Osraige

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Maybe the solution to this is to have decisions to merge certain cultures. Like you could make Ukrainian-Ruthenian, Bulgarian-Macedonian and Turkish-Azeri mergeable if one falls under another, and if they don't, they can just stay separate. I would argue Romanian-Aromanian could be the same too.
 
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grandsteed

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Maybe the solution to this is to have decisions to merge certain cultures. Like you could make Ukrainian-Ruthenian, Bulgarian-Macedonian and Turkish-Azeri mergeable if one falls under another, and if they don't, they can just stay separate. I would argue Romanian-Aromanian could be the same too.
I think this could work, as it has happened at various points in history. Perhaps make it possible for the cultures to eventually splinter again if they are separated or similar event happens, but merging them would be useful.
 
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georgekann

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I am just here to say that i love how civilized this community is. As a Greek I can tell you that, in any other forum, any discussion for the balkans would have evolved in the traditional balkan way
 
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ikki

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Or did the area become a powderkeg BECAUSE Rhomaion was split up? With a ultimately fairly homogenous population split into competing nations each feeling like the clay across the border actually belongs to them. And this rivalry leading to nonsensical arguments like a IRL observed one "xxx are our brothers, join us or we will kill you". Pointed out that is most assuredly not a way to treat brothers, they did feel sufficciently sorry about it in the end.

So if kept as a single unit a rumelian/rhomaion aka roman meltingpot national identity can develop. Not solving religious heterogenity quite yet but that is a little more work to do. Perhaps even a outside benefactor allowing some kind of puppet home-rule and thus giving peace a chance?

Saw somewhere on reddit a map for a contemporary alt history rumelia, evidently won some prize for best alt maps. And there was a good reason for it. Cannot find it now (not that familliar with reddit). And no, no idea what group. But probly some alt history, alt map or maps or some such.
 
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1834 Serbian Population Census

Shinkuro Yukinari

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I recently came across an excellent document detailing the results of the 1834 population census of Serbia, down to the small villages, and up to the district level.
While it is in Serbo-Croatian and focuses on households rather than individuals, it would serve very well for developing the pop values for Serbia depending on how it gets organised. I can try to dissect a proper distribution depending on how the map division of Serbia turns out and averages of numbers of children to accomodate for them as well.
 
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JackAlNXT

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Just discovered this thread and boy do I need my schooling cap on!

There is no such thing as VMRO pre-1913. The organization was called VMORO: Internal Macedonian Adrianople Revolutionary Organization. It covered the areas of Vardar Macedonia, Aegean Thrace and Adrianople.

Pretty much every member of the VMORO studied in Bulgaria, worked as teacher in Bulgarian schools in the Ottoman Empire (hello, Gotse Delchev), and also served in the Bulgarian army.

Until 1907, Bulgaria was still a vassal of the Ottoman Empire. The goal of an autonomous Macedonia was a long-play that would've basically been a repeat of this previous Bulgarian Unification.

During WW1 what remained of the revolutionary organization was oficially integrated into the Bulgarian army. After WW1, it split into several organizations that covered the lands lost by Bulgaria: VMRO in Macedonia/Yugoslavia, VTRO in Thrace/Greece and VDRO in Dobrogea/Romania.

------------------------------------------

My main point is, be very mindful when navigating this time period. North Macedonian historians have a tendency of employing massive revisionist history for political reasons.
 
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Krajzen

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Man, this game is going to have such epic Balkan threads
 
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TonyJones

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Just discovered this thread and boy do I need my schooling cap on!

There is no such thing as VMRO pre-1913. The organization was called VMORO: Internal Macedonian Adrianople Revolutionary Organization. It covered the areas of Vardar Macedonia, Aegean Thrace and Adrianople.

Pretty much every member of the VMORO studied in Bulgaria, worked as teacher in Bulgarian schools in the Ottoman Empire (hello, Gotse Delchev), and also served in the Bulgarian army.

Until 1907, Bulgaria was still a vassal of the Ottoman Empire. The goal of an autonomous Macedonia was a long-play that would've basically been a repeat of this previous Bulgarian Unification.

During WW1 what remained of the revolutionary organization was oficially integrated into the Bulgarian army. After WW1, it split into several organizations that covered the lands lost by Bulgaria: VMRO in Macedonia/Yugoslavia, VTRO in Thrace/Greece and VDRO in Dobrogea/Romania.

------------------------------------------

My main point is, be very mindful when navigating this time period. North Macedonian historians have a tendency of employing massive revisionist history for political reasons.
There was VMORO yeah, some supported Bulgaria some not. Though there was also just VMRO, MRO, etc. Supreme version whatever.

A lot of members studied in Bulgaria yeah. Yeah Delchev was at a "Bulgarian" school in Solun, because the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. There was no Macedonian Church at the time.

Not all VMRO joined Bulgaria.

You can scroll back to threads and see I remember posting one of a VMRO member saying how Macedonians were not Bulgarians, Serbs, or Greeks and were there own people, fighting for their nation. Many Macedonians did, yes some supported Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece, but many didn't.
 
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JackAlNXT

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Some VMRO joined, some didn't. Some people claimed to be distinct Macedonians, some didn't. Majority at the time clearly didn't. There is nothing wrong with that. You start with a few people in the minority and, gradually, over generations you become the majority. Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't know why y'all cause such a fuss over it.

A lot of members studied in Bulgaria yeah. Yeah Delchev was at a "Bulgarian" school in Solun, because the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. There was no Macedonian Church at the time.

May I ask why are you putting Bulgarian in quotes? Is it an implication that it was forced upon him? I've seen this argument pop up all the time in North Macedonian revisionist history. It's not a very good one though.

First of all, Solun was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Second, the Bulgarian church was not independent from Constantinople.
Thirdly, even if it was, how does it force random citizens to not use their own language? Did the Ottomans allow the Bulgarian church to have language police?
Lastly, are you aware that until the 1860s Bulgaria was under the Greek church? By your logic, shouldn't Bulgarians speak Greek?
 
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TonyJones

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Some VMRO joined, some didn't. Some people claimed to be distinct Macedonians, some didn't. Majority at the time clearly didn't. There is nothing wrong with that. You start with a few people in the minority and, gradually, over generations you become the majority. Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't know why y'all cause such a fuss over it.



May I ask why are you putting Bulgarian in quotes? Is it an implication that it was forced upon him? I've seen this argument pop up all the time in North Macedonian revisionist history. It's not a very good one though.

First of all, Solun was part of the Ottoman Empire.
Second, the Bulgarian church was not independent from Constantinople.
Thirdly, even if it was, how does it force random citizens to not use their own language? Did the Ottomans allow the Bulgarian church to have language police?
Lastly, are you aware that until the 1860s Bulgaria was under the Greek church? By your logic, shouldn't Bulgarians speak Greek?
It wasn't majority Bulgarian.

Well I mean yeah the schools were run by the Exarchate. That's why it was Bulgarian.

I never really talked about language, besides I guess the school as Bulgarian, and thus they learnt Bulgarian.
 
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vikinglord

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Like the fact that the organisation in its first charter was named BMORK (Bulgarian Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees)?

Or Gotse Delchev's quote: "Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are all Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan..."

You choose.
 
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TonyJones

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Like the fact that the organisation in its first charter was named BMORK (Bulgarian Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Committees)?

Or Gotse Delchev's quote: "Let us not allow the splits and splintering to frighten us. It is, indeed, a pity, but what can we do, since we are all Bulgarians and all suffer from one common disease. If this disease had not been present in our ancestors, from whom we inherited it, they would have never fallen under the sceptre of the Turkish Sultan..."

You choose.
There was Bulgarian VMRO, and Macedonian VMRO.

Gotse Delchev goes on to say that there are also those who have fallen to the Greek disease. He also continues stating it is "our duty not to not succumb".

There are also plenty of letters where he calls himself Macedonian, seperate from Bulgarian.
1623670537159.png

Seen above.

"I will teach you French so you can tell the world you are Macedonians"

"While my shoulder should carry a rifle, Macedonia will not be available to the Bulgarian"

And many more.
 
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vikinglord

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There was Bulgarian VMRO, and Macedonian VMRO.

Gotse Delchev goes on to say that there are also those who have fallen to the Greek disease. He also continues stating it is "our duty not to not succumb".

There are also plenty of letters where he calls himself Macedonian, seperate from Bulgarian.
View attachment 731500
Seen above.

"I will teach you French so you can tell the world you are Macedonians"

"While my shoulder should carry a rifle, Macedonia will not be available to the Bulgarian"

And many more.

Ahahahahah, oh boy, classic Macedonist propaganda and fake quotations. The "quote" is made up and it's from the 1953 novel Ilinden from Dimitar Talev, a Bulgarian from Prilep. It is in Part 2, chapter 1 of the book if you are interested.

Might as well quote Cinderella, Pippi Longstocking or Winnie the Pooh while you're at it.
 
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Ahahahahah, oh boy, classic Macedonist propaganda and fake quotations. The "quote" is made up and it's from the 1953 novel Ilinden from Dimitar Talev, a Bulgarian from Prilep. It is in Part 2, chapter 1 of the book if you are interested.

Might as well quote Cinderella, Pippi Longstocking or Winnie the Pooh while you're at it.
Which one are you referring to? I posted 3. And can you provide proof it is fake, not just claim so?