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Hospodar

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And vlachs too hopefully, they should have the highest concentration at the Serbia-Romania border.
Agreed. Although, unlike Balkan Vlachs proper (a.i. tsintsars), they should be represented as standard Romanian POPs since they speak the same subdialects as their neighboring Romanian counterparts (a.i. Banat and Lower Wallachian subdialects).

iu
 
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Agreed. Although, unlike Balkan Vlachs proper (a.i. tsintsars), they should be represented as standard Romanian POPs since they speak the same subdialects as their neighboring Romanian counterparts (a.i. Banat and Lower Wallachian subdialects).
I sorta agree but from what i have heard cultures will have more than just a linguistic component to them so there may be a slight chance that they will be added separately but i won't be mad if they are just represented as Romanians.
 
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I hope nations can be incorporated as interest groups in the Ottoman Empire. Ethnicity remained a major factor even after the establishment of the parliament. Including ethno-religious groups in the government at the expense of Turkish/muslim dominance could create an engaging Ottoman gameplay.
 
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In regards to the Macedonian question, I would argue that it should not exist at the start, but in the 1870s we should see a gradual introduction of macedonian pops, corresponding with the rise of Bulgarian nationalism. For example, here is a letter from 1874 talking about the people in the region embracing a separate identity from Bulgarian through a unique language and church structure.
 
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Agreed. Although, unlike Balkan Vlachs proper (a.i. tsintsars), they should be represented as standard Romanian POPs since they speak the same subdialects as their neighboring Romanian counterparts (a.i. Banat and Lower Wallachian subdialects).

iu
I disagree that language should define culture in Vicky 3. For example, Croats and Serbs speak the same language, but calling Croats "Catholic Serbs" would be outrageous and definitely not correct. Since Vicky 3 models cultural discrimination modularly, I would suggest keeping cultures separate (Vlachs separate from Romanians, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs all separate), but put their linguistic differences exactly to zero.
 
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I disagree that language should define culture in Vicky 3. For example, Croats and Serbs speak the same language, but calling Croats "Catholic Serbs" would be outrageous and definitely not correct. Since Vicky 3 models cultural discrimination modularly, I would suggest keeping cultures separate (Vlachs separate from Romanians, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs all separate), but put their linguistic differences exactly to zero.
I'm not saying that language should define culture in Vicky 3, but the ethnic Romanians of Timok did not develop a distinct national consciousness within the game's timeframe (and even today, it's mostly a post-Yugoslav phenomenon and certainly not uniform).
 
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In regards to the Macedonian question, I would argue that it should not exist at the start, but in the 1870s we should see a gradual introduction of macedonian pops, corresponding with the rise of Bulgarian nationalism. For example, here is a letter from 1874 talking about the people in the region embracing a separate identity from Bulgarian through a unique language and church structure.
It's incorrect to say it didn't exist before the 1970s, like this book from 1845 for example, which is by a Macedonian, in the Macedonian (Slavic) language, in the Greek alphabet (which doesn't automatically make him Greek), where he declares himself and Alexander Macedonian.
Screen Shot 2021-05-25 at 6.54.08 am.png
Screen Shot 2021-05-25 at 6.54.17 am.png

There are plenty of more examples of Macedonian identity before 1870s.
 
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It's incorrect to say it didn't exist before the 1970s, like this book from 1845 for example, which is by a Macedonian, in the Macedonian (Slavic) language, in the Greek alphabet (which doesn't automatically make him Greek), where he declares himself and Alexander Macedonian.
View attachment 723343View attachment 723344
There are plenty of more examples of Macedonian identity before 1870s.
However, when do we see examples of communities embracing the Macedonian identity? Can you provide some examples from before the 1870s?
 
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It's incorrect to say it didn't exist before the 1870s, like this book from 1845 for example, which is by a Macedonian, in the Macedonian (Slavic) language, in the Greek alphabet (which doesn't automatically make him Greek), where he declares himself and Alexander Macedonian.
Although Alexander wasn't a Slav at all, we know that he was Greek, and not Macedonian (Slavic).
And just because a book says something doesn't mean it's true, it's up to local populations to decide what they are, which the idea of Macedonian seemingly didn't exist for quite some time, unless if there is evidence to suggest that the locals did see themselves as Macedonian.
 
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However, when do we see examples of communities embracing the Macedonian identity? Can you provide some examples from before the 1870s?
Screen Shot 2021-05-25 at 7.28.19 am.png

1860 Macedonian saying they are Macedonians, same as those of Alexander's time.

Screen Shot 2021-05-25 at 7.30.16 am.png

Around 1640s letter from Archbishop of Ohrid (Macedonia) to the Vatican, distinguishing Macedonians as their own people, seperate from the Serbs and Bulgarians. It also describes Macedonia as "the land of Alexander the Great".

Here's 2 ones for now, I can get more later but yeah whatever.
 
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Although Alexander wasn't a Slav at all, we know that he was Greek, and not Macedonian (Slavic).
And just because a book says something doesn't mean it's true, it's up to local populations to decide what they are, which the idea of Macedonian seemingly didn't exist for quite some time, unless if there is evidence to suggest that the locals did see themselves as Macedonian.
"Slav" is a linguistic and somewhat cultural group, not genetic. He wasn't Greek either. But this is irrelevant to 1800s. It doesn't matter whether Alexander was Macedonian, it's about what did the Macedonians of the 1800s believe he was.
 
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The modern Slav northern Macedonians are mostly a creation of Tito’s Yugoslavia. Even though there were some regional nationalists before that, it makes no sense to separate them from Bulgarians. At the time most people thought they were Bulgarians, that’s why the region was included in Bulgaria both in the treaty of San Stefano but also the pre-war treaties of the first Balkan war. It’s also why the region was annexed twice by Bulgaria in the world wars. If they are separate Moldovans should also be a separate culture because they were both post ww2 creations by regimes raising regional identities of a people of another nation to divide and conquer
 
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"Slav" is a linguistic and somewhat cultural group, not genetic. He wasn't Greek either. But this is irrelevant to 1800s. It doesn't matter whether Alexander was Macedonian, it's about what did the Macedonians of the 1800s believe he was.
But it does matter as the international community considered Alexander the Great to be Greek, and not Macedonian (the Slavic Macedonia), and if we ignore that and only consider what the Macedonians think, then that's bias, and that doesn't help for a game that's trying to be historically accurate.
 
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But it does matter as the international community considered Alexander the Great to be Greek, and not Macedonian (the Slavic Macedonia), and if we ignore that and only consider what the Macedonians think, then that's bias, and that doesn't help for a game that's trying to be historically accurate.
Is this not about what the Macedonian called themselves? What does it matter what everyone else thought? I do not understand that at all. Even though non-Macedonian did think Alexander not Greek, including many Greeks, though still it is irrelevant.
 
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The modern Slav northern Macedonians are mostly a creation of Tito’s Yugoslavia. Even though there were some regional nationalists before that, it makes no sense to separate them from Bulgarians. At the time most people thought they were Bulgarians, that’s why the region was included in Bulgaria both in the treaty of San Stefano but also the pre-war treaties of the first Balkan war. It’s also why the region was annexed twice by Bulgaria in the world wars. If they are separate Moldovans should also be a separate culture because they were both post ww2 creations by regimes raising regional identities of a people of another nation to divide and conquer
How is mostly the creation of Tito? You can see plenty of sources for Macedonian identity before Tito. Look at the Illinden Uprising. And wow Bulgaria annexed Macedonia? Yeah so did Serbia and Greece and Turkey.
 
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How is mostly the creation of Tito? You can see plenty of sources for Macedonian identity before Tito. Look at the Illinden Uprising. And wow Bulgaria annexed Macedonia? Yeah so did Serbia and Greece and Turkey.
For example they created the “Macedonian language”, it being used for the first 1944
 
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How is mostly the creation of Tito? You can see plenty of sources for Macedonian identity before Tito. Look at the Illinden Uprising. And wow Bulgaria annexed Macedonia? Yeah so did Serbia and Greece and Turkey.
Actually the Illinden Uprising was Bulgarian, the majority of the revolters identified as Bulgarian, and not Macedonian, and before Tito, the majority of the people in Macedonia (at least the non-greek part) considered themselves Bulgarian and not Macedonian, it wasn't until the 1960's when Macedonian became the majority in identification in Northern Macedonia.
 
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Actually the Illinden Uprising was Bulgarian, the majority of the revolters identified as Bulgarian, and not Macedonian, and before Tito, the majority of the people in Macedonia (at least the non-greek part) considered themselves Bulgarian and not Macedonian, it wasn't until the 1960's when Macedonian became the majority in identification in Northern Macedonia.
No. I already sent earlier if you scroll back some VMRO members calling themselves Macedonian, and not Bulgarian. Also look at the declaration that came from the Republic from the uprising.
 
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