Posthumous Papal State incarnation

[pontifex_medius]

I saw something odd today that needs explaining.

I had captured the last remaining province of the Papal State, Roma, and converted it to protestantism. A year later, Würzburg suddenly became the Papal State. The Papal State had no core on either of the two provinces they came to make up; they were cored simultaneously with the liberation. I'm aware that the Papal State may demand liberation even after being vanquished, but can they just be formed from another state, without having a core on the provinces?

 

[unmerged(605863)]

When you annex the Papal State and refuse to give them Rome, theey re-appear in a Theocracy, like Avignon, Magdeburg, Cologne.

 

[nicholas2000]

Try to imagine the historic counterpart to this.

A foreign ruler annexes Rome, and the Papal States. What does the Pope do? He moseys on to one of the Archbishops, and demands he hand his land over, because there is no hope of a reformed Papal State in Italy.

Makes sense to me.

 

[pontifex_medius]

When you annex the Papal State and refuse to give them Rome, theey re-appear in a Theocracy, like Avignon, Magdeburg, Cologne.

Try to imagine the historic counterpart to this.

A foreign ruler annexes Rome, and the Papal States. What does the Pope do? He moseys on to one of the Archbishops, and demands he hand his land over, because there is no hope of a reformed Papal State in Italy.

Makes sense to me.

That does make sense, thank you. I hadn't considered the possibility that Würzburg may have been archbiscoptic or theocratic.

 

[grommile]

That does make sense, thank you. I hadn't considered the possibility that Würzburg may have been archbiscoptic or theocratic.

For reference, the Catholic theocracies in a 1399 start are Aquileia, Ausgburg, Avignon, Cologne, Magdeburg, Mainz, Riga, Salzburg, Teutonic Order (who are ineligible to become the Papal States), Trier, and Würzburg.

 

[quinntan2222]

For reference, the Catholic theocracies in a 1399 start are Aquileia, Ausgburg, Avignon, Cologne, Magdeburg, Mainz, Riga, Salzburg, Teutonic Order (who are ineligible to become the Papal States), Trier, and Würzburg.

Don't forget the Knights

 

[unmerged(499943)]

Don't forget the Knights

What about Riga?

Yah, ok, bah.

 

[unmerged(463662)]

For reference, the Catholic theocracies in a 1399 start are Aquileia, Ausgburg, Avignon, Cologne, Magdeburg, Mainz, Riga, Salzburg, Teutonic Order (who are ineligible to become the Papal States), Trier, and Würzburg.

...

 

[n0thin]

+ Liege, Münster, Bremen, Alsace and Utrecht. That should be all.

 

[CrazedSeal]

If Italy is formed, and the Papal states gets annexed, its essentially over for them.

And once all the catholic Theocracies go...

 

[rene_starson]

So what happens if someone converts a game from ck2 and the papal states doesn't exist at game start? And what if no theocracies either?

 

[grommile]

So what happens if someone converts a game from ck2 and the papal states doesn't exist at game start? And what if no theocracies either?

Then if a Catholic who isn't ITA owns Rome at game start, they'll get an event saying the Pope would like his city back.

 

[Ranger Blue]

The Papal State can reappear from any Catholic (I believe) Archbishopric, the idea being that the Catholic church still needs a head, even if it's no longer situated in Rome.

 

[pontifex_medius]

What happens if all archbishopric states eligible for Papacy are vassalized/annexed, with a conquered Papal State, though?

 

[cuendillar]

What happens if all archbishopric states eligible for Papacy are vassalized/annexed, with a conquered Papal State, though?

No more Papal State if all theocracies are annexed, though just being a vassal doesn't make them ineligible to become the new papacy. When a new one (re-)appear, I think that country become the pope if there isn't any. I saw a catholic Persia becoming the Papal State once, that was rather bizarre.

The curia still remains, even if there is no papal state.

 

[pontifex_medius]

No more Papal State if all theocracies are annexed, though just being a vassal doesn't make them ineligible to become the new papacy. When a new one (re-)appear, I think that country become the pope if there isn't any. I saw a catholic Persia becoming the Papal State once, that was rather bizarre.

The curia still remains, even if there is no papal state.

If the Papal State reemerges from a vassal, will the Papal State remain a vassal, or is the vassalization canceled? And if it remains, will it effect the relations between the liege and the vassal?

 

[cuendillar]

If the Papal State reemerges from a vassal, will the Papal State remain a vassal, or is the vassalization canceled? And if it remains, will it effect the relations between the liege and the vassal?

It's a normal tag-change, so relations and diplomatic connections with all countries will be that of the nation from which they reappear. The relations of the former Papal State doesn't factor in at all.

 

[pontifex_medius]

^ OK, thanks.

 

[rene_starson]

I converted save file from CK2 to EU3 as Orthodox Roman Empire. Kicked Pope out of Rome, and he settled into a bishopric in Hungary (one of two Catholic nations remaining at end of CK2, other being Scotland)

So in EU3 save, even though Pope held a temple in Hungary, it wasn't enough to maintain any control over EU3 provinces, so they disappeared from game. Only Theocracy I can see in game is Avingon, somewhere in Germany. However, 80 years into game, it hasn't converted into Papal States. This might have to do with the fact that I think Avingon is Orthodox too.

However, 30 years back I saw message that Scotland has control of the Curia and the Pope has called for a crusade for some Timurid controlled persian province.

So yeah, take from that what you will.

 

[fenisnad]

Papal States changes can get weird. I had one game where Portugal changed to Papal State. Another where Trier became the Papal State, but I made them release Trier, then the Palatinate took over - when Trier was released again, it's government type was "Papacy", though Munster was the Papal State already.