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Nuril

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...It is? I've never run into trouble with it.

It's associated with American anti-Japanese war propaganda, me thinks. Although that's political correctness that doesn't really matter, since it is just a shortening of the actually word, not some actual derogatory meaning intrinsic to the word's etymology. Not bothering with it should be fine, eventhough I can't even consider saying it, since it sounds awkward as hell. :)
 

Nick B II

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...It is? I've never run into trouble with it.

Dude, 99% of the time when Jap's used it's a quote from a character in a WW2 movie, who is about to try to kill the Japs he is referencing.

Which makes it a lot like kraut.

The fact you've gotten away with it doesn't say much. Japanese Americans are less then one quarter of one percent of the population, so it's likely that most people you called Japs were offended because they are not Japanese. The ones who were offended because they actually are Japanese were almost certainly the only Japanese people in the room, which means that their complaints could be interpreted as 'PC whining.'

And if you're the only Japanese guy in the room would you rather let a certain amount of white-boy ignorance go unchallenged, or risk having a reputation as somebody who can't take a joke?

Nick
 

Galle

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On topic: I still say that, based on CK1, CK2 will almost certainly not be as "stable" as Orinsul is suggesting it should be. Any sort of large initial empire should be easy to break up.
 

Orinsul

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On topic: I still say that, based on CK1, CK2 will almost certainly not be as "stable" as Orinsul is suggesting it should be. Any sort of large initial empire should be easy to break up.

Its the perfect example of stability. Empires falling dont matter as the structure, the society, the civilisation and the ruling class remain absolutely safe and unchallenged. There are no revolutions, only rebellions, nothing changes except the cosmetic. The conflicts are between different parts of the same ruling class not another against them. When an empire falls apart everything continues exactly as before but under a different banner. a kingdom may fall apart but the society and the civilisation never will. What part of that sounds well-suited to the turmoil and chaos of a post-apocolyptic setting? For all the things that matters its stability, Empires and Flags and Taxes which is all youre talking about dont matter at all, its just politics, from a consistent system of politics which does not change no matter the wars or challenges. It is stability. Victoria II is built for revolutions and collapse, CK isnt.
 

Galle

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Its the perfect example of stability. Empires falling dont matter as the structure, the society, the civilisation and the ruling class remain absolutely safe and unchallenged. There are no revolutions, only rebellions, nothing changes except the cosmetic. The conflicts are between different parts of the same ruling class not another against them. When an empire falls apart everything continues exactly as before but under a different banner. a kingdom may fall apart but the society and the civilisation never will. What part of that sounds well-suited to the turmoil and chaos of a post-apocolyptic setting?

The part where the kingdom falls apart, which is the kind of instability we'd like to see in a post-Apocalyptic setting. Victoria 2 wouldn't be nearly as well suited - states rarely actually break up in Victoria 2, they merely go through a series of new governments. States break up in CK all the time.
 

Orinsul

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The part where the kingdom falls apart, which is the kind of instability we'd like to see in a post-Apocalyptic setting. Victoria 2 wouldn't be nearly as well suited - states rarely actually break up in Victoria 2, they merely go through a series of new governments. States break up in CK all the time.

only because it lacks the tags and cores for them to have anything to break up into which in a mod it wouldnt. states break up, but stay the same. but obviously youre not going to get it so no worries
 
Apr 17, 2011
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There is the difference between the stability of the society and that of the state.
In CK the society is extremely stable (there are no revolutions), while states are not (they break up and reform).
In Vic the society is not stable (all the revolutions and forms of government), while states are somewhat stable (as there are no tags to break off).
 

Dogia

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I love this idea. A canticle for Leibowitz is a great novel based on this very idea. With Kingdoms having sprouted up after a nuclear holocaust in north america. I would totally play it.
 

Galle

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There is the difference between the stability of the society and that of the state.
In CK the society is extremely stable (there are no revolutions), while states are not (they break up and reform).
In Vic the society is not stable (all the revolutions and forms of government), while states are somewhat stable (as there are no tags to break off).

This, pretty much. For a post-apocalyptic mod, unstable states are more important than unstable societies (which we can probably mock-up with events anyway)
 

Nick B II

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Ah, right, I'd forgotten about de jure kingdoms. I'm sure there's /something/ we can do about that.

Put every province in the Kingdom of NONE and you're fine.

That said, remember even if the post-Apocylyptic mod starts the day of the Apocalypse it'll last for four centuries. The oldest country in the hemisphere hasn't made it to 3 centuries yet.

So yeah, 2 days after the Apocalypse de jure Kingdoms don't make much sense. But 100 years after the Apocalypse why wouldn't they exist?

Nick
 

Orinsul

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id say they would two days after de jure does make sense but not two hundred years, two days would be people trying to restore the old so the de jure is perfect. but for the chaos of two says after? not so much. CK2 requires civilisation.
im going back to what i said on the last page, Sengoku is a military character game, which seems perfect for a post-apocalyptic mod to me and out very soon so less quibbling more work. it can do for the chaos and the restoration and all the fighting inbetween but without the fuedalism and laws and the rest of, it basically is a post-apocalyptic game only with a very small and dull apocalypse. But it can do the chaotic post-apocolyptic and CK2 can do the lebiowitz new established civilization a great time after one.
make the mod for the mechanics that suit it best and quit worrying about it.
 

Galle

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id say they would two days after de jure does make sense but not two hundred years, two days would be people trying to restore the old so the de jure is perfect. but for the chaos of two says after? not so much. CK2 requires civilisation.
im going back to what i said on the last page, Sengoku is a military character game, which seems perfect for a post-apocalyptic mod to me and out very soon so less quibbling more work. it can do for the chaos and the restoration and all the fighting inbetween but without the fuedalism and laws and the rest of, it basically is a post-apocalyptic game only with a very small and dull apocalypse. But it can do the chaotic post-apocolyptic and CK2 can do the lebiowitz new established civilization a great time after one.
make the mod for the mechanics that suit it best and quit worrying about it.

Could you describe a how CK2 is mechanically unsuited for representing the chaos of a two-days-after scenario?

I mean, you seem to think Victoria II isn't, which is just ridiculous. Victoria II's revolution mechanics have nothing to do with what we want to simulate, while CK's independence-declaring and civil war mechanics (based on de facto power blocks rather than "nations" that would be arbitrarily defined in a US scenario anyway), as well as its character-focus, seem much better suited. Sengoku has a similar problem - it's about, effectively, a civil war. Not a country truly breaking up and Balkanizing, just a change of power within that country. CK isn't necessarily about countries breaking up and balkanizing, but if you've played CK1 you know damn well it's good at simulating it.
 

Orinsul

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obviously youre not going to get it. No one ever dies!, rights always stand, there is feudalism, a strict set of rules the Structure is in place. CK is safe, your kingdom might fall but you will not. and with the new One CB rules and unbroken feudalism that the DDs have been quite clear on then it is patently unsuited. Everything is built for stability even if it doesnt go that way, everything is built for the expectation that rules will be followed.
CK2 is not CK. the devs are putting alot of working into forcing stability, even the rebellions will follow the rules.
As for Victoria II as you seem stuck on that, it only doesn't has 'bulkanisation' because it doesn't have the tags, in a mod where every province has its own tag then it would have.
Sengoku is about a civil war, take away the victory condition and then its an unending civil war. CK isnt about Countries breaking up but that happens anyway, from everything thats been said that it will break up just as much as CK does. CK does not because its what the game is about but because every province has a tag. And its about a Civil War, the collapse of an authority and every dog with a sword taking over his district and frightening anyone who tries to take it. How is that not exactly what wanted in an apocalyptic setting? but in Sengoku there will be more instability, your vassals wont work for you by default as in CK2, war is the rule not the exception and a character who loses will actually die not just lose his title. Sengoku is about a Civil War, its about a little end of the world so its best placed for a Big end of the world. CK is about the civilisation that rose 500 years after a little end of the world. Sengoku is only about one country because it says it is, what it is a war between shaky alliances that collapse on themselves, where vassals work to other-throw their liege as the rule not the exception. The One country change of power is the setting, it only means as much as the localisation. Most historians take the view of Europe in the middle ages as being more one nation than many nations anyway so the same could be said of either.

Bulkanisation isnt the point, its the result of every province has its own tag, its not the result of the game having the word Crusader in the title. And Bulkanisation is one of the 'bugs' that Paradox has strived to fix in the sequel. Where as Sengoku has promise clans breaking apart with every unpopular ruler and every show of weakness, which if bulkanisation is all you think matters is exactly what youre looking for.
 

Nick B II

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Make everybody a Count so King and Duke-titles have to be created. Start with each province having the minimum number of Baronies (IIRC it's two), and make the Barons highly likely to rebel if their Lord is an independent Count. Add a bunch of death in battle events. Especially for losers.

*poof* the few decades anarchy after the Apocalypse is simulated.

And we used CK, so the winners can create high level titles titles and rebuild society.

Nick
 

Nitt the Mitt

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Maybe something like this.
unled1pmv.jpg
I made it so that America is going medieval and anything south retains it's republics. I was in the scenario that if Canada and the United States of America was nuked, but it's neighbors might not be, or may not be as affected.

Also, I believe that not all new states and countries would retain their original state name. Someone earlier said something about an Age of Darkness. After such a period of technological decline, I wouldn't be surprised to hear if some nations were created based on names of destroyed buildings.. etc.
For example: FORD may of become FOI D.
 

Orinsul

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the golden circle idea a couple pages back would probably be best to go with. The Plains are more for nomads than kingdoms, without modern infrastructure and technology most of America isnt suited to sedimentary civilisation, the winters and summers too baren, continents make seasons extreme, coasts and mountains moderate and America is on the whole big and flat in the middle. The Rivers and the Coasts and the land near them. Plains being where Mongols, Huns and the other barbarians come from, not civilisation as you need to move with the seasons if youre to live through them.
And the mispronounced or spelt words should be avoided as thats the kind of joke which only stands to make the setting a joke also, look to the Fallout setting and how great they suffer from it.
and why kingdoms and duchies? its not europe, its republic and governor and what have you that are written everywhere, that are remembered. having kingdoms and duchies doesnt really make sense, it implies an arrogance. Hereditary Rule came to europe from the beaucracy of Rome, appointed titles became hereditary when there was no longer anyone to replace them, Dukes born from Dux.
Governorships and Mayoralties handed from father to son to secure stability. Not the stupid and powerful declaring themselves dukes out of vanity and overthrowing the establishment as that would never sustain and not be universal, but the system remolding around the new realities. The same job continuing under the same name and more or less the same function, just differently appointed. Presidents instead of Emperors as the office of Great Secular political Authority, leader of the world, would not be made from memories of Rome but memories of America. Dukes hold no power or authority in america, why should they suddenly gain it when the world burns? The people would turn to existing authorities for leadership and help, as they always do. And when the incumbent died, well his son was always at his side wasnt he? watching and learning, he will know what to do. That's how hereditary rule develops, not from declaration and a romantic view of another continents history, but a slow progression and the need for stability.
If its going to be interesting then the Why and the How of the shape of the world should matter more that the gimmicks and the grandeur. Dont make it a pale imitation of medieval europe but rather a bright and wonderful thing itself which is wholely and entirely itself. If its post-apocalyptic america have it post-apocalyptic america not post-apocalyptic fake-europe. There should always be a reason.
 
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