Possible to remove supply system? 1.4 still broke

[numdydar]

The REAL problem with supplies

To me, the main issue with supplies is NOT the supply system as it is designed in the game, it is the VERY limited (some might say non-existent) ways the player can effect the supply system.

In RL, supply lines ARE a critical part of warfare so it should be an important part of any game covering WWII. However, also, in RL, all sides, had to spend IC to improve and fix supply paths in order to get supplies to the troops, In the game this is represented by improving infrastructure, Ports, and tech. All well and good so far.

The supply system breaks down because the played has NO direct control of where they want the supplies to go. If I have X number of supplies at a production center (capitals serve as this in HoI3) and I want them to go to a certain location on the map, I should be able to do that and override the automatic distribution system. If this means that other ares would not get supplies because I did that, all well and good as I made the strategic choice and that is the way it should be.

So if I want to send massive supplies to Africa as the Germans and leave the units in France (or even Russia) without supplies, and have built up the capacity to support the increase supply throughput, then I should be able to do so. The fact that I cannot is where the supply system is broken as I should have a choice of where my X amount of supplies should go, and this is the important part, IF I CHOSE TO DO SO.

One method that might solve this issue would be to have the ability to set theaters (or map areas) as having differnt level of supply priority. So for the Germans, Russia could be a 1, Africia 2, France 3 etc. In this way all the supplies that could would go to Russia. Once the piplines were full, then the excess would go to Africia, then to France. This way the player would at least have the ability to control where they need the supplies the most. As setting the supply lines up would be a long term event, allow changing the priorities on a monthly (or longer period). This would allow the player a better level of granular control than they do now. Currently, it is all or nothing. Supplies go everywhere whether the player actually wants them there or not. Personally, I would not care if my French garrisions were OOS while I was deep into Russia

 

[paysano]

very odd

i have noticed probably a bug in the way supply work, i did a test with bhutan and i realise that if you use more of your ic than necesary your supply will growth but will strop growing when it reach a point and stay at lest say 2000 supplies even if you continue giving more ic to supply than necessary ....any thought about that?

 

[unmerged(84132)]

Oh... Splitting of supplies into food, ammo, clothes, etc was also mentioned. Bad idea. Better to leave everything generic - every layer of complication would cause more computer processing ability (ie, LAG) and the AI would have to be written to take advantage of it, which is not easy... Not to say I think that the gameplay would not be improved when we would have the ability to ship shirts, and boots - yea thats exciting - I look forward to that micromanagement....

So it is better to have all your units at 0 supplies all the time then to draw from different supply pools?

I am not saying that we need to ship shoe laces around, but food/personal goods and munitions would be a perfect de-abstraction. Why does my units in Africa that fight nobody run out of munitions or even need to be sent munitions when it should all be going to my units fighting Russians? This should cut the amount of supplies that are being consumed and sent (thus relieving some but not all bottlenecks manufactured by a poorly designed system).

Also, the supply system is not really a processor hog, so adding one more layer to the supply system is meaningless. That would be like adding one more feature to the the weather system, it wont change anything.

Also, there would not be much of a change for the AI as all it would have to do is work like the current system. You have a muni draw and a food/personal goods draw. Essentially it is the same thing being done twice, just two different names for it.

I think you are over estimating the "cost" of doing essentially two of the same things that have the potential to alleviate some of the issues in the current system.

 

[Slan]

i have noticed probably a bug in the way supply work, i did a test with bhutan and i realise that if you use more of your ic than necesary your supply will growth but will strop growing when it reach a point and stay at lest say 2000 supplies even if you continue giving more ic to supply than necessary ....any thought about that?

Bhutan is a puppet. If they produce too much, they will send the surplus to their master. It is WAD.

 

[paysano]

very true

sorry my mistake about the supply problem in bhutan you are right

 

[DeathAndDecay]

While I am very new to HOI3 and Paradox Strategy games in general (although I'm in love with them now and intend to purchase most if not all of them), I am definitely in the WAD crowd for the supply system.

It may not be perfect, but there is no way you should be able to drop a super stack on some random island, 2 province beachhead, or march your entire army deep into Siberia without massive supply issue.

I'm biased by my preference for historical or at least historically plausible games, but I like be hindered by supply issues and view it as another opponent I need to tactically overcome.

I think the number of "fix the supply system it is broken" threads on this forum is testimony as to how it is indeed WAD.

It's not supposed to be easy, or even possible in all situations.

 

[GUNNM]

One thing I would like to know is how many troops you use in Africa.

I usually dont have much supply problems because I keep my divisions quite small only to keep supply demand low. Sure, I have my hungry tanks and Mech but many times these are kept close to my capitol waiting for their next mission.

My infantry are usually INF-INF-INF, but I often build some MTN-MTN for low infra zones.

And a suggestion that some might not like. If you have trouble with low supplies, give the AI control of your forces. It has a much better grasp of how much supplies you have and will not launch attacks that they have to break off when they are almost at their desination (like it often does for me). It might not launch as many attacks as a human player, but atleast it can finish them.

 

[petester]

Also, the supply system is not really a processor hog, so adding one more layer to the supply system is meaningless. That would be like adding one more feature to the the weather system, it wont change anything.

So I take it that you didn't test very many of the 1.4 RC versions then. Where some of the small incremental changes sometimes caused significant slowdowns...

Everything that is done has to be done with an eye on performance... Everything the computer does takes processing power. Everything that is done has to be repeated by the AI for EVERY single country, every single hour/day. And with a more complicated AI script to track another few variables. Yep, the next post everyone writes is about how the lag is back...

 

[petester]

My infantry are usually INF-INF-INF, but I often build some MTN-MTN for low infra zones.

I realize that this is directed to the guy with the problem. But for me, I used single Inf or Mil bdes along the same axis as the majority of my forces & then merged them into divs when combat was needed. Mil-Mil and Inf-Inf for standard deployed forces (keeping with historical accuracy). Cav-Cav for speed here and there. 3xMar-Eng for naval assault forces & to move quickly through jungles. 3xInf, 2XLArmd-Mot-Eng and 2xLArmd-Mot-TD for when punches needed. I kept 2xMArmd-Mot-Eng and 2xHArmd-Inf in backpocket when I wanted to terminate quickly.

I should have included some Mountain - and will next time for the SW portion of Africa. Would have been useful. Only reason I had the Mil was because I started with them - and then they proved to be very useful later so I kept them.

Overall, my 3xMar-Eng divs faced the most combat. The Inf bdes did the most movement.

Historically, there were very few Divisions used in Africa. The main units were the brigades (and these were quite dispersed) - with the exception of the later Desert campaign & then the the later advance after Casablanca. Outside the N-African coastal area with its moderately accesable roads & ports, the rest of the forces in Africa were limited to regimental/batallion level - with the majority being militia equilivant in terms of strengh. Lots of "manpower", little "combat" power.

 

[unmerged(84132)]

So I take it that you didn't test very many of the 1.4 RC versions then. Where some of the small incremental changes sometimes caused significant slowdowns...

Everything that is done has to be done with an eye on performance... Everything the computer does takes processing power. Everything that is done has to be repeated by the AI for EVERY single country, every single hour/day. And with a more complicated AI script to track another few variables. Yep, the next post everyone writes is about how the lag is back...

There is a difference between doing one thing twice and doing two different things.

All the supply lines are already calculated (basically the bulk of the processing), so all that needs to be calculated is what needs to be sent. Not very algortihmically intensive.

An increase in a fraction of a percent of a small percent of work leads to essentially no change in work. Its like how a lot of people asked for the weather system to be optimized when it accounts for about 2% of the total work (aka processing power).

Also, this would be an expansion addition as well, so I would hope that they would atleast increase current performance of the AI. What I would love to see them do with the AI would probably give a decent boost (depending on the processesor and compilers it is being run on), but I doubt it is in the scope of engine modifications seeing as how it has been that way since the engine was made (thats basically have each country AI be its own thread).

 

[unmerged(84132)]

After a certain point, it is not about where your units are and what they are doing, its more about how much there are.

Even if you have the industrial capabilities to supply all your units 10x over, your supply system does not grow with either your IC or the amount of units you have.

If all I do is go in to Africa and nothing else, it is easy to supply them.

However, when you go in to Africa, Spain, India, Russia etc. All your supply lines get bogged down and nothing gets anywhere. Why is that? Because all your supplies come from the same place and spend most of the time going through the same provinces.

God forbid you have a land bridge to any of these places because all your level 10 ports you spammed along the way will be useless.

What eventually happens is that you end up with all your supplies trying to feed both India and Africa through 1 province. About the time that happens is when all your troops in Spain and Russia also stop recieving supplies.

If playing historically, it should be hard to supply Africa with supplies. However, if I build the industrial capacity, infastructure, and support system to supply my troops, you still cannot do that.

As America (getting rid of the guarantees), I turned South American in to all 100% infa provinces and spammed lvl 10 ports. I still could not get my units supplied as all the supplies would try to go through Panama and hence go no where. Seems more like a flawed supply system, then a flawed play style.

 

[Sangeli]

If there were simply multiple supply areas and depots in a contiguous land area the problem would be fixed (each area supplied by a single supply depot). The borders of the regions could even be predetermined by the programmers and it would work just as well. Each supply depot calculates the supply need in that area and has supply routed either from ports or neighboring areas to meet that need. It is not necessary to remake the whole supply system, only to tweak a few features.

 

[unmerged(185688)]

If there were simply multiple supply areas and depots in a contiguous land area the problem would be fixed (each area supplied by a single supply depot). The borders of the regions could even be predetermined by the programmers and it would work just as well. Each supply depot calculates the supply need in that area and has supply routed either from ports or neighboring areas to meet that need. It is not necessary to remake the whole supply system, only to tweak a few features.

This, +1

As long as those supplies are not first routed to the capital, then back out (like what currently happens with IC). As well, you should be able to have a supply source in foreign "occupied/annexed" provinces. All IC in a pre-defined region sends supplies to the supply depot/area for that region, then on to any forces in the area. A minimum stockpile is kept in each region and anything over that stock that isn't used gets routed to your capital.

 

[Sangeli]

This, +1

As long as those supplies are not first routed to the capital, then back out (like what currently happens with IC). As well, you should be able to have a supply source in foreign "occupied/annexed" provinces. All IC in a pre-defined region sends supplies to the supply depot/area for that region, then on to any forces in the area. A minimum stockpile is kept in each region and anything over that stock that isn't used gets routed to your capital.

Very good point. I forgot to include that with my system that within owned territory creation of supply is apportioned by IC to each supply district. Any supply that is not needed immediately simply gets pushed back to the capital for storage. As for the storage of supply in industrial but non combat areas, I don't think that is necessary nor a good idea. So it would still use the "just in time" system and fit within the general framework of the current supply system, with a few major but not overwhelming changes.

Maybe the creation of supply should be apportioned uniformily by IC (so you can build supply in occupied territory but it wouldn't be much anyway). In any case it shouldn't be too hard to supply far flung continental units as long as there is a decent port nearby

 

[Traks]

Yes, calculation of "cheapest" way for supplies would be critical to improve supply behaviour to what people expect. That would warrant sending supplies to nearest port, as port + route often will be much cheaper than route x.

 

[unmerged(185688)]

Very good point. I forgot to include that with my system that within owned territory creation of supply is apportioned by IC to each supply district. Any supply that is not needed immediately simply gets pushed back to the capital for storage. As for the storage of supply in industrial but non combat areas, I don't think that is necessary nor a good idea. So it would still use the "just in time" system and fit within the general framework of the current supply system, with a few major but not overwhelming changes.

Maybe the creation of supply should be apportioned uniformily by IC (so you can build supply in occupied territory but it wouldn't be much anyway). In any case it shouldn't be too hard to supply far flung continental units as long as there is a decent port nearby

I partially agree about the non-combat areas. In areas where there are no units then all supplies should be routed to the capital, but if there are units in a defined region (regardless of combat) then the supply area retains a minimum stockpile (15-30 days extra per brigade?), to cut down on supply tax and travel time. But, Once that stockpile is acheived any further supplies produced will get redirected to the capital until that stockpile is depleted, or nearly depleted (2-5 days "per brigade"?).

Edit: That means the unit in question would first have to use 25-28 days of it's 30 day supply, and then it would start to draw from the 15-30 day regional stockpile, once that stockpile reaches it's depletion mark it would start to draw from regional IC and/or the capital until full, then stop. I'm envisioning some sort of intermittant cycle (which will reduce cpu usage as well). To stop units from drawing supplies when it still has 25, 20 or even 10 of it's 30 day supply left, thats unneccesary.

 

[Enigma1]

I actually don't want supply to be changed to the degree you are suggesting - by having supply from the area you are in, rather than supplied from home you are treating supply as a game unit, rather than imagining it as food,clothes,ammunition,letters from home,SPAM!,etc etc.
Troops on the ground would need ammunition made at home, and would definately want supplies from home rather than live on locally produced stuff all the time.

I personally am not that bothered about supply all coming from home as long as we can actually ship it out. The bottleneck at the capital was the main problem as there was nothing you as a player could do to increase the amount of supply that could pass through the bottleneck.
By removing the throughput limits around the capital Paradox has improved the situation a lot and this 'simulates' the amount of supply that could come from multiple home sources.

The problems with the supply system are much more simplistic. Using a land corridor of hundreds of miles when there are ports near by is a big problem as the supply tax can result in massive penalties by the time supply gets from Berlin to Palestine overland. The switching of several ports to one port for supply as has been reported (particularly as Japan in China) is also another major problem that can only be overcome by not joining your controlled areas together until the last minute. These are the real problems with supply.

 

[unmerged(185688)]

I actually don't want supply to be changed to the degree you are suggesting - by having supply from the area you are in, rather than supplied from home you are treating supply as a game unit, rather than imagining it as food,clothes,ammunition,letters from home,SPAM!,etc etc.
Troops on the ground would need ammunition made at home, and would definately want supplies from home rather than live on locally produced stuff all the time.

I personally am not that bothered about supply all coming from home as long as we can actually ship it out. The bottleneck at the capital was the main problem as there was nothing you as a player could do to increase the amount of supply that could pass through the bottleneck.
By removing the throughput limits around the capital Paradox has improved the situation a lot and this 'simulates' the amount of supply that could come from multiple home sources.

The problems with the supply system are much more simplistic. Using a land corridor of hundreds of miles when there are ports near by is a big problem as the supply tax can result in massive penalties by the time supply gets from Berlin to Palestine overland. The switching of several ports to one port for supply as has been reported (particularly as Japan in China) is also another major problem that can only be overcome by not joining your controlled areas together until the last minute. These are the real problems with supply.

Food, clothes, ammunition and spam can be produced anywhere, as long as proper facilities exist(IC) and a workforce is available, so why not? Why have a simple fix that barley functions, instead of something a little more complex that would actually work(and be roughly accurate to history)...?

 

[Traks]

Enigma1,
as I reported before, sometimes there is one-two ports which receive supplies and sometimes there are lot of small. It happens randomly, also happen a lot on reload. Seems that this is when supply routes are recalculated. If this topic is still here next week, maybe I will post some screenshots to show it properly.

 

[Enigma1]

Food, clothes, ammunition and spam can be produced anywhere, as long as proper facilities exist(IC) and a workforce is available, so why not? Why have a simple fix that barley functions, instead of something a little more complex that would actually work(and be roughly accurate to history)...?

They can be, but they were not.... I don't recall the North African Spam factories, or the Nile Delta Ammunition factories... Then of course it is difficult to produce woollen socks in the middle of the pacific islands etc etc. The fact is supply came from home for a reason...uniformity, control,troop morale.

This is not some global game of economic expansion it is a war game.